My turn for an engine drop! questions.

[Skip Newsom]

First of all, thank you to all who post and answer on Pelican!!
You have helped me out greatly already!
I'm a newby on 911's, after 20+ years of longing I bought a '72' 911T a couple of months ago. It's been sitting in the PO's garage for quite some time and needed a good home, I gladly provided one! (I have lots of VW expertise)

My new love is completely stock, 82K with the 2.4, MFI, and a 915 tranny.

Here's whats been done/replaced so far:
All fluids changed, brake calipers rebuilt, MFI pump removed, (Berryman's B12ed, freed up and reinstalled), valves set, cap, rotor, wires, plugs, igniton box all replaced, timing and dwell set, basic injection adjustments done, stacks removed & cleaned.

Here's what happened yesterday
I've had her running reasonably well and put on about 200 miles.
I headed out for a short test drive to see if I was getting closer on the MFI adjustments and noticed the oil gage begining to drop!
When I pulled into my garage a huge puddle of oil appeared rapidly from between the engine and transmission... Aaaarrrgghh!

Looking at it tonight convinces me I lost the front main seal behind the flywheel.

Questions:
On this year/model is it easier to remove the engine and tranny together? (Haines seems to think so, but the tech artical talks about removing the engine separately)

How difficult is it to replace a main seal?
(I know I'll have to remove the flywheel, that should be fun?)

Has anyone in the Seattle North area got an engine stand I can rent?

[Elombard]

I just dropped the engine/tranny in my 73. There is no point in not taking the tranny out with the motor its only an extra ten minutes and putting it back in was much easier I suspect. Remember the Gear shift lever and parts dont get touched!! I was shocked, you take one small allen out and the shifter is seperate from the tranny!!

A couple of lessons I learned that were not in the manuals.

1.) dont forget to take the speedometer loose from the tranny - its hard to see behind the mount.

2.) make sure to use indelible marker on the tape for marking the wires : - ))

3.) When fitting the motor back up dont sweat the alignment of the bolts, particularly the tranny bolts, get it up close to position and start the bolts a little. Once the rear bolts are in every thing else lines up pretty easily. I tried to start with the tranny bolts but because the back of the car is up in the air so high the angle wont let you start the bolts. I spent way too much time messing with it.

4.) Leave all of the 4 main bolts loose until almost last. You will almost certainly leave something hanging down and pinched between the tin and the chassis.

5.) If you have the right jack and a helper at the end, you will have the motor out in 1 hour!!! Its really a snap. Especially as handy as you must be to have done the other things you mentioned.

6.) Be prepared to spend a good bit of time cleaning the engine compartment and parts, follow Waynes advice and replace the seals he recomends. You will probably realize that they were all leaking even if your car doesnt drip.

7.) Get several rolls of paper shop towels other wise you will quickly use up the cloth shop rags and have to throw them out (If your wife is like mine : - ))

8.) The front and rear main seals are incredibly easy to get out. Porsche actually provides a slot (on my SC anyway) to get your screw driver in and pry them out.

9.) Dont forget - new fly wheel bolts.

10.) Buy one of Waynes Flywheel bolt tools or get a cheap after market. If you get a cheap after market cut it down!!! The cheapy I got was too long and wobbled when trying to re - torque to 106 ft-lbs I stripped it and had to cut the tool end and the other end - huge pain, trust me cut it down.

11.) Since you have to take the flywheel off; the Porsche engine stand is really convenient because you can do it with the engine on the stand. They are awfully expensive. Fortunately, I was able to borrow.

12. the throw out arm and the way the clutch woks will freak you out!!! Look at it carefully so you understand it before you take it apart. Its simple but its different. Pull the starter off and look in the holes at how it works after it is on the ground.


Finally

13. If you can, do the work where you can roll the body out after the engine is out and degrease the engine/tranny compartment - I cant believe how much crud is in there.

Good luck - you wont believe how easy it is.!!!

[Jim Sims]

Are you sure it's the rear main seal? Any chance the oil is coming from above? Since you removed the MFI pump what about the oil line going to it? What about the "hard line" from the bottom of the engine to the oil tank (loops around by transmission)? I'd be real sure before dropping the engine/transmission. If you do drop them, drop them together and then separate after they're "on the ground". You'll need a special bit (triple square) for flywheel screws and a new set of flywheel screws as these are one time use fasteners. Other items you'll need: CV joint flange gaskets (at least two and maybe four) and at least 8 (maybe 16 if you also remove CV flanges at the wheels) new 10 mm Schnoor lock washers for CV flange screws. Also while you have the engine out replace the breather cover gasket and the thermostat o-ring. You might also consider removing the engine mounted oil cooler, cleaning it and replacing the three rubber seals associated with it.

Items to disconnect or remove when removing engine/transmission:
1. disconnect battery in front trunk.
2. shift coupling.
3. transmission to body ground strap.
4. throttle linkage.
5. clutch cable (also remove fabric stap holding clutch cable off throttle linkage.
6. speedometer cable
7. fabric strap holding parking brake cables.
8. fabric hoses from heater box outlets to heater valves on body.
9. starter wires.
10. CV joints at transmission output flanges; tie axles up out of way if you do not disconnect wheel side CV joints.
11. soft hose from engine mounted oil cooler to oil tank
12. "hard oil line" from engine to oil filter console; disconnect at console.
13. air filter, air cleaner and associated parts.
14. 14 pin connector
15. connectors/wires to ignition system
16. fuel lines (be careful with any plastic tees or other fuel line fittings; they're hard to replace OEM parts)
17. breather hoses from oil tank.
18. anything else connected to engine (hoses to charcoal cannister?)
19. after supporting engine/transmission; transmission mount screws and rear engine mount bolts

Good luck! Jim

[Superman]

I'm not going to restate the engine removal procedure here, but I will strongly suggest you investigate further before you go removing any engines. You must absolutely clean and inspect the engine so as to ensure that you see exactly where the oil is coming from. I'm sure it looks like it is leaking out the hole at the bottom of the bellhousing, but humor me. Clean the whole thing with a pressure washer, drive and then find the uppermost little bit of wet oil.

[Skip Newsom]

Thanks for the details!
The first thing I did when I cooled off a bit was to pull the air cleaner housing and look closely at the top of the engine, there was some oil there, but not much. I also started it and did not see any leaks on top... but lots of oil coming from the engine/tranny connection area.
The next day I jacked up the car, put stands under it and cleaned most of the oil off the underside. I closely inspected the hard oil line, the cooler, and lines coming from the oil tank praying I would see a loose hose or obvious blow out. No such luck. However, as I layed on my back I saw a small stream of oil coming out of the hole between the engine and tranny, I wiped it off and within a few seconds more would drip.

Another question:
Knowing the car has 82K on it, is original, has good cold compression (155-170 psi) and that I have already spent most of my "allowance" on parts, what would you do to it other than replace the seals, clutch disc (I'm sure it's oily), oil lines, and fix obvious leaks?
(I'm going to need to find some good used heater boxes too!)

[Jim T]

Its of course a good idea to make SURE the leak isn't something relatively easy, like the pressure sender on top of the engine or some other external and easily replaced part.

But, if your oil is clearly coming from the little hole between the trans and the engine as you describe . . . I'd start to lose some optimism.

I've had to do that job twice . . . uggh.

[marcesq]

Skip:

If you take alook at my conversion home page, the section on the removal of the 2.7 has a lot of pictures as well as a step by step. Not gospel, just illustrated.

Replacement of the main seal is not difficult, carefully remove the original taking care not to score the crank or the seat on the block. Clean all surfaces and lube the crank. Some use an expensive tool, I use a rubber mallet and gently work around the seal until seated flush with the block.

Good luck.

[john walker's workshop]

it's really unusual for a flywheel seal to fail like that. you can remove the flywheel on a 35YO engine, and the seal is barely moist on the bottom. obviously, the engine needs to come off the trans, and then you'll see. i remember a 2.7 that popped out seals. the case was so worn down the crank line that the crank would move up and down at the flywheel end. always a good idea to use a couple of screwdrivers on opposite sides of the flywheel and see if you can rock it back and forth, up and down.

[Bobboloo]

I agree with Jim Sims on the engine drop procedure. It's really easy on an early car to drop the motor and tranny together. I prefer it. When it's time to bolt up it's seems easier to get the torque right on each bolt.

Just to fill you guys in on Skip's car. It sat for quite a while without running. Couldn't that have a drying out effect on the main seal? I think his guess may be correct.

Also, Skip getting the jack in the right spot on the motor and tranny where they balance makes the job much easier when it's time to lower the motor. Also, when you start lowering, edge the motor and tranny towards the rear of the car so that the shift rod can clear the chassis. Oops, I just remembered that you know VW's. Oh well too much information is better than too little.

Bobby

[Skip Newsom]

OK, now I'm really confused!!!
When I drove the car last Sunday a large leak started suddenly. For all I could tell after jacking it up, cleaning everything and looking with a flashlight. it was coming like a gusher from between the engine and tranny when I'd start it...

So now I'm ready to do my first 911 engine drop and I thought I'd fire it up on the jack stands one last time and observe as close as I dare where the leak was coming from.
I ran it for at least 15 minutes (added 1 quart of oil to bring it back up to 7 quarts on the guage) and no real leak to speak of!!!
Just 8-9 drops from the hole between the engine and tranny. It was not completely up to temp, but I did shut it down for 5 minutes and then start again... still no more than a couple of drops.
What the heck is going on here???

I did read the post from David Ceruti about the seal being too deep:
Crankshaft oil seal too deep

I wondered if it's the transmission... but my oil guage was absolutley moving down while driving last Sunday.

Anyone else have this happen???
Why would it suddenly not leak?

[Bobboloo]

It could be the main shaft seal on the tranny. It's not uncommon for them to go. Was the oil thick and did it smell like gear oil?

Another, better possibility however could be the thermostat or cooler. The thermostat opens at 80 degrees centigrade. Did you run the car long enough to hit 80 deg?

Also when checking oil levels the car should be level and running at operating temp. i.e. 80 deg. You usually will see the gauge level change when the thermo opens. Then check it with the dip stick in the oil tank. The gauge is really only good for estimates.

Bobby

[marcesq]

Skip:

If you would like some help, I'm just around the corner, and in the event that a drop is required, I have engine & tranny jacks.

We have a group of about 10 that would most likely be willing to help as well.

Check out these threads to see how much fun it can be:

3.2 Conversion - The Final Chapter.

LeSchander Engine Drop . . . Follow up

Engine drop . . . day one

Let us know.

[Superman]

Does it have that gear-oil fragrance? That stuff is pretty unmistakable if your nose works. The dipstick has motor oil on it, for reference.

I wonder if there is a peek-hole on the starter-side of the bellhousing. Oil running down the case could get in there or get in on the other side, and then leak out the hole at the bottom, making you think your rear main seal is leaking. Reach up to the top of the starter. Is this area wet with oil? Or toward the center of the engine top?

I have needlessly removed engines and trannies before, so I am careful not to do this.

[Skip Newsom]

To Marcesq,
Man! I'd love the help... however, I'm in Washington state, not DC. It might be a fun road trip though?
I've got a good 2 ton floor jack with a tranny plate and some help coming later today. I'm considering putting the air cleaner back on and going for another test drive.

Bobboloo, Superman,
It is engine oil. So much leaked so quickly, and it had the consistancy, aroma, and pleasing valvoline smooth finish on the palate.

[marcesq]

You know with all of my training and education, you would think that I could tell the difference between VA & WA Oh well good intentions. Sorry about that.

If I can help from afar, I would be glad to. Let me know and I will PM my phone numbers.

[Jim Sims]

Another good reason to use Swepco in the transmission; if there's blue Vulcan blood on the floor one knows it's the tranny or the brakes (if you have Ate super racing blue installed). Cheers, Jim

[marcesq]

Another good reason to use Swepco in the transmission; if there's blue Vulcan blood on the floor one knows it's the tranny or the brakes (if you have Ate super racing blue installed). Cheers, Jim

And if it's green, it leaking from both ends!!

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

And if it's not too late, don't remove the motor seperate from the tranny unless you have someone with experience along for the fun. Trust my experience...

[Skip Newsom]

Update!!
I took some advice from one of the earlier posts and look yet again... there is fresh oil clear up on the starter! (of course, there is some on the other side too! this motor is in serious need of leak fixing!)
NOW I'm thinking it may just be the oil cooler (I hope!!!)
The Haines manual leaves alot to be desired, but it says you can remove the oil cooler without removing the engine???

Anyone done that job before???

I'm doing a search for oil cooler R&R now and that is where I'll start. It does make some sense that I would not see leaking when the engine is not up to full temp, oil flow through the cooler is limited (I believe) until it's up to 80c (thanks Bobboloo!)

Thanks again for the support and ideas!!!

[Elombard]

Skip

They say you can, looks tough to me, getting the two bottom nuts out that hold in the cooler will be tough. There are two small bolts in the side where the tin attaches also..... actually I think you have to take that piece of tin off because it wraps around the cooler. Some of the bolts that hold the tin on are going to be totally blind. Worth a shot though. Dont get frustrated if it is sticking there is probably another bolt. There are a few bolts in the tin up under the back of the CIS that will be really hard to see.

The rubber seals for the oil cooler will be kinda tough to make sure they stay in place while you reinstall the cooler. Maybe you could stick them in with a little gasket maker (make sure it doesnt get in the oil!!!)

go get em