Oil Lines - Inside and home built? Front tank?

[scootermcrad]

Hey folks!

I did a search, but didn't see exactly what I was looking for. SOMEWHERE I saw some great examples of early 911's with the oil lines from center cooler, and to the inside. Didn't think much of it at the moment, but then looking back at it I see why it's an interesting project.

Anyone have some examples of running oil lines to the inside? Working them into the rockers, floor, whatever?

Also interested in home-built ideas for oil lines/tubes and of course the cooler/heat x-changer itself. Any input on a DIY setup (by DIY, I don't mean hardware store parts, just a little home fabrication). Elephant Racing wants some big bucks for something that seems pretty straight forward with the right kind of hoses, tubing, and fittings.

Also, what's the basic "brew recipe" for moving the oil tank to the front might be an interesting topic. Home built tank? Baffling? Feed and return? etc...

Building an early 911 from the ground up. Been thinking a lot about oil lines and oil cooling lately. So any links to some topics I may have missed, would be great. Anyone who has tried ANY of that, I would love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!

[James Brown]

lots of racing applications for front mounted oil tank and lines run from engine through the cabin to the oil coolers and back to the tank and out to the engine. weight transfer is a big reason for doing it, looks cool also.

[scootermcrad]

Yeah, I like the idea of bringing the lines inside, a lot. Was thinking about even redoing the rockers to allow for rerouting them without disrupting the interior space too much.

Any pics or info on doing lines yourself, Interior routing, front mounted tanks, etc.?

[175K911]

For a race car this might be a good idea. But for two reasons I would NOT do that on a street car:
1- If an oil line has a problem inside the car, it's going to spray the interior and occupants with 190 degree oil. A racer will be wearing Nomex clothing and other protective gear.
2- You will be bringing two long runs of hot hose/ braided hose/ tubing into the interior. For a street car in the summer, I wouldn't want all that radiant heat inside.

Besides, the exterior hard lines are exposed to the air at speed and offer some minimal cooling for the oil lines which would be lost by running inside.

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by 175K911

For a race car this might be a good idea. But for two reasons I would NOT do that on a street car:
1- If an oil line has a problem inside the car, it's going to spray the interior and occupants with 190 degree oil. A racer will be wearing Nomex clothing and other protective gear.
2- You will be bringing two long runs of hot hose/ braided hose/ tubing into the interior. For a street car in the summer, I wouldn't want all that radiant heat inside.

Besides, the exterior hard lines are exposed to the air at speed and offer some minimal cooling for the oil lines which would be lost by running inside.

DUH! Very good points.... thank you for the moment of clarity.

Well, maybe lets just forget I mentioned the inside oil line thing... and talk about making oil lines and front mounted tanks.

Seems -16/AN16 should be the focus for a 3.2L. Seems -12 is a little more common for aftermarket coolers (center- mount). Who has a good recommendation for suppliers of coolers, hard lines, fittings, and flex hose? Local hydraulic supply for the tubing? I'm not a big fan of the look of the braided stainless lines, but love the braided "fabric/cloth" look like Elephant uses. Was thinking that would be a good way to go. I'm a sucker for the details. What about thermostats? Can this be sourced as an aftermarket component or is it better to simply source a used stock assembly?

Front oil tanks... probably over the top, but are they worth doing? What does a stock oil pump think of the location of the oil tank being moved? Anyone built their own or installed someone elses up front?

The car will primarily be street driven and nothing serious for the track, but just a little fun on track days and club events.

[Ferrino]

Very interested in this thread. I recently bought a '76 911 with a 2.7-3.2 conversion and there is no front-mounted oil cooler (fender nor bumper). I would like to retrofit an oil cooler in either location and am also stumped at the cost of an OEM-like kit with brass lines etc. Is it popular/acceptable to simply go with flexible hose all the way from oil tank to front-mounted cooler? I'm also interested in the front-mount oil tank possibility too. Similar application here: primarily street but with occasional trackdays.

[scootermcrad]

Just took a look around and was comparing "high performance" -16 AN type hose from various companies. What type of hose would be acceptable for the application? Seems a 6 foot length of AN type braided hose (made by various companies) can be had for around $1.30(ish) per foot, on average. It's rated at around 350 psi at 300*F and -40*F. And it's black braided. Seems this type of hose will work with all AN type crimp fittings.

Is 350 psi enough? I assume aluminum tubing would be ideal for the hard line sections? Particular type to look for? What about the rest of the fittings in the system?

Sorry for the newbie question! (full of them today) The basket case 911 I bought has NO oil lines, cooler, or thermostat. All I have is a 3.2 oil tank. That's it. So I have nothing to compare to.

[James Brown]

aeroquip stratoflex 156 AN-16 hose is $33.50 a foot. without fittings. this is the real stuff FAA-PMA hose. maybe run tubing to flair fittings and use the flex hose at the ends, that would save cost. Look at Pegasus racing, they sell oil tanks.

[toddu]

Fluidyne is right out by you. They can probably point you in the right direction. And, being in the middle of auto sports mecca, you can probably find all the fittings and hosing you need. I'm able to find a ton of local shops (a lot of motorsports stuff out by me as well) to help me out with things like media blasting, powder coating, tig welding, etc. I just pop and they either do it, or know someone that does.

Todd

[BoxsterGT]

We used Aeroquip hose on our GT2 but only where movement was required. It is very expensive new. Alum tube w flare ends & tube nuts is cheap, but can only be used where the tube is fixed in place. It's very likely to crack if allowed to vibrate.

By far the most reasonable way is to buy used factory hardlines that run along the outer rockers. $100-$150 per line is typical. Try to find them locally to save on costly shipping.

The factory hoses are available new from our host at reasonable prices or find them used for less. If you find used hoses cheap, I can re-hose them for very little money.

Its one thing when braided hose is used on race cars that get a full nut-and-bolt inspection before every race. But on a street car, you will not be doing that detailed look and its hard to tell behind the braid when a rubber hose is beginning to fail.

Just a few points to consider.

Len

[dad911]

Originally Posted by scootermcrad

......
Building an early 911 from the ground up.
.....
Thanks!

How early a 911? SWB? Building it to do what? Track? Autocross? street-stock? What engine? 2.0 or 3.6??

You're in NC, mildly hot in summers, probably want a cooler. Unless you are building a killer racecar, skip the front oil tank. I've had racecars with tank in front, but most applications you are better off in the back, near the engine, so it never starves for oil.

My '71, with a range of 2.2 -2.7 engines over the years, track use, benefited from a front cooler, mounted center behind bumper. Used braided lines. Found it occasionally starved in tight left turns, but that went away when I changed tank to a later tank (improved baffling and slightly larger)required some modification to the sheetmetal.

For the street, with a stock engine, I'd take BoxsterGT's advice and find stock lines, stat, and cooler.

[scootermcrad]

Thanks for the input, guys! Good stuff!

The car is a '70 911T. 3.0 or 3.2. Primarily I will be building it for the street and plan to drive it regularly (probably not as much in the summer with the high temps and lack of AC, but then there's always nice evenings ). Track days from time to time and club events. Nothing "serious" though.

Car needs some rust repair, so that's what got me thinking about custom oil lines and maybe hiding them a bit so they don't hang down as low. At some point in the car's life, it appears a PO tried to do a later IROC style build and changed to a short hood front panel. I have a long hood front latch panel for it and I'm switching back to keep it a long hood and will be incorporating a duct in the front pan for the center mount oil cooler. Needs a front suspension pan anyway.

Were the stock lines 30mm? I'll definitely think about just going stock. Especially since that takes the forming work out of things. Just figured I would have to make custom lines anyway if I routed them differently.

Since I've got a 3.2 tank, I assume I will need to look for the later oil lines and thermostat, correct? What would one expect to pay for any/all of these stock components?

And as toddu mentioned, I'm up here in the heart of race country and even have a few buddies that work for some race teams up here. Sourcing some trick parts gets a little easier, but only if I know what I need. I saw the Aeroquip stuff and for that matter, Elephant even sells hose by the foot on their site. 5000 psi rated! WOW! That's pretty serious! Guess I'd never have to worry about bursting a hose!

So, entertain me for a minute. If a person were to build their own lines (if stock weren't going to work for routing), and wanted to put together something similar to what Elephant sells less the (super amazing!) finned aluminum hard-lines, what would a person need?

Sounds like there's no real benefit to a front mounted oil tank, unless some serious track performance is needed where weight distribution is a must-have. I'll skip it and stick with the rear mounted. Feel free to chat about it anyway, though. Sounds like I'm not the only one interested in the topic. A little education on the topic certainly wouldn't hurt anyone.

Lots of questions! Thanks for the help, guys! Getting a great education, here! I appreciate all your input!

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by BoxsterGT

We used Aeroquip hose on our GT2 but only where movement was required. It is very expensive new. Alum tube w flare ends & tube nuts is cheap, but can only be used where the tube is fixed in place. It's very likely to crack if allowed to vibrate.

By far the most reasonable way is to buy used factory hardlines that run along the outer rockers. $100-$150 per line is typical. Try to find them locally to save on costly shipping.

The factory hoses are available new from our host at reasonable prices or find them used for less. If you find used hoses cheap, I can re-hose them for very little money.

Its one thing when braided hose is used on race cars that get a full nut-and-bolt inspection before every race. But on a street car, you will not be doing that detailed look and its hard to tell behind the braid when a rubber hose is beginning to fail.

Just a few points to consider.

Len

Thanks Len! I'll check out my option for used hoses and what not. I guess the first thing is figuring out if I want to route them in the stock locations. If I end up needing some re-hosing I will definitely be letting you know!

And I agree! Aluminum lines would have to be fixed and replicate the stock originals in design. Aluminum is just great when it gets moving and work-hardens followed by cracks and... well... you know the rest. Would aluminum have the pressure rating needed if I ended up going this direction? I should be able to source it locally without a problem. In fact, the company I work for manufacturers hydraulic-driven vehicles, so I have a good internal source for hydraulic components. Also Parker right next door.

So is this all just a really dumb idea; making my own lines? I guess I'm a tinkerer at heart and like fabrication and custom work, so it seemed like a no-brainer to do my own oil system with the right recipe of components... I also know there is a time to put away my brain and just use what makes sense. Maybe all this is stupid.

[911pcars]

If you're bent on customizing front oil cooler lines and have to perform rust repair in that area anyway, you could run rigid lines inside the passenger-side rocker panel. Some early 911s did that. Only a heater duct (and rust) occupy that space.

The finned ER oil lines are brass, not aluminum (please correct if I"m off), and I would consider using this more fatigue-resistant material if it's permanently enclosed, then use flex line at the entry and exit points.

Using external flex lines from rear to front is possible, and it's been done, but it's difficult to route under the chassis without looking obvious and ungainly (YMMV). In addition, with the same OD, rigid lines will have a larger ID for better oil flow.

I'd suggest not reinventing the wheel and instead install the factory lines or equivalent. Your choice of fender or front-mount (better) cooler is up to you and your needs for most efficient oil cooling.

Sherwood

[scootermcrad]

Thanks for the input Sherwood! I appreciate that! And yes, thinking back to the ER stuff, I believe that is correct. Brass finned tubing. My mistake.

I was wondering about actually running through the rocker. I suppose I would be losing a bit of cooling with the lines being enclosed and installing them might be a bit tricky. How did this work coming from Porsche with the heater duct sharing the space?

I definitely do not like the idea of running flexible tubing from front to rear. The car appears to have actually had that at one point, looking back at older photos. I agree that hard lines not only make sense for flow reasons, but also look nice and tidy.

Were stock hard lines steel or something else? Will probably end up going stock...

Originally Posted by 911pcars

If you're bent on customizing front oil cooler lines and have to perform rust repair in that area anyway, you could run rigid lines inside the passenger-side rocker panel. Some early 911s did that. Only a heater duct (and rust) occupy that space.

The finned ER oil lines are brass, not aluminum (please correct if I"m off), and I would consider using this more fatigue-resistant material if it's permanently enclosed, then use flex line at the entry and exit points.

Using external flex lines from rear to front is possible, and it's been done, but it's difficult to route under the chassis without looking obvious and ungainly (YMMV). In addition, with the same OD, rigid lines will have a larger ID for better oil flow.

I'd suggest not reinventing the wheel and instead install the factory lines or equivalent. Your choice of fender or front-mount (better) cooler is up to you and your needs for most efficient oil cooling.

Sherwood

So what are you guys doing for center-mount coolers? I've seen a few options thrown out there. Any good threads worth checking out that covers the topic well?

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by scootermcrad

Thanks for the input Sherwood! I appreciate that! And yes, thinking back to the ER stuff, I believe that is correct. Brass finned tubing. My mistake.

I was wondering about actually running through the rocker. I suppose I would be losing a bit of cooling with the lines being enclosed and installing them might be a bit tricky. How did this work coming from Porsche with the heater duct sharing the space?

I definitely do not like the idea of running flexible tubing from front to rear. The car appears to have actually had that at one point, looking back at older photos. I agree that hard lines not only make sense for flow reasons, but also look nice and tidy.

Were stock hard lines steel or something else? Will probably end up going stock...

So what are you guys doing for center-mount coolers? I've seen a few options thrown out there. Any good threads worth checking out that covers the topic well?

Factory lines are also brass. Rocker oil lines are doable if: a. you're assembling the unit body on the assembly line or b. replacing the outer rocker panel for whatever reason. I think you'll find plenty of room for the lines in that cavity. The issue is forming rigid lines to fit, accessibility and how to make the entry/exit points neat (suggest factory-like). If at all possible, you don't ever want to re-enter this area again.

There's plenty of info on pros/cons in the archives related to oil coolers, location options and how-to. Use a search engine like Google for links. The forum search engine is limited (doesn't find much).

S

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

Factory lines are also brass. Rocker oil lines are doable if: a. you're assembling the unit body on the assembly line or b. replacing the outer rocker panel for whatever reason. I think you'll find plenty of room for the lines in that cavity. The issue is forming rigid lines to fit, accessibility and how to make the entry/exit points neat (suggest factory-like). If at all possible, you don't ever want to re-enter this area again.

There's plenty of info on pros/cons in the archives related to oil coolers, location options and how-to. Use a search engine like Google for links. The forum search engine is limited (doesn't find much).

S

Brass! Great! Good to know. Thanks! I see no reason not to just use them, then. Not sure why I thought they would be steel. Any reason NOT to use stock lines on a car that will mostly just be a hopped up street car?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about entry/exit points. Without doing some type of bulkhead type setup, it gets a little difficult to get a seal that's permanent, yet allows flexibility for installation and body movement/flex. I'm thinking this may complicate things more than anything.

I'll do more Googling... THANKS!

This is what I'm planning on doing for the front for the center-mount cooler. Lower picture shows a wheel well mounted cooler also. Just doing a ducted center cooler.

[Rob T.]

Here are some pics of our version of "oil lines inside" in our street cars.
We used aeroquip hose and fittings.
Works really great without any leaks or spraying oil to the inside.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by scootermcrad

Brass! Great! Good to know. Thanks! I see no reason not to just use them, then. Not sure why I thought they would be steel. Any reason NOT to use stock lines on a car that will mostly just be a hopped up street car?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about entry/exit points. Without doing some type of bulkhead type setup, it gets a little difficult to get a seal that's permanent, yet allows flexibility for installation and body movement/flex. I'm thinking this may complicate things more than anything.

I'll do more Googling... THANKS!

This is what I'm planning on doing for the front for the center-mount cooler. Lower picture shows a wheel well mounted cooler also. Just doing a ducted center cooler.

I use a front-mount cooler. Depending on your engine and anticipated operating conditions, you may not need the sheet metal ducting for exit air. My cooler is butted up against the bulkhead and oil temps have never exceeded 210ºF (RS-type 2.7). Again, YMMV with a larger, more modified engine and/or other op. conditions.

Sherwood

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

I use a front-mount cooler. Depending on your engine and anticipated operating conditions, you may not need the sheet metal ducting for exit air. My cooler is butted up against the bulkhead and oil temps have never exceeded 210ºF (RS-type 2.7). Again, YMMV with a larger, more modified engine and/or other op. conditions.

Sherwood

The reason I figured I would do the ducting was I have to do some rust repair in the region of the latch panel. May as well throw in some ducting for some additional flow since I have to make a patch panel from scratch anyway.

Originally Posted by Rob T.

Here are some pics of our version of "oil lines inside" in our street cars.
We used aeroquip hose and fittings.
Works really great without any leaks or spraying oil to the inside.

Wow! Impressive! Are your hard-lines actually welded at each elbow? Thank you for all the pictures!