Tell me if I'm whacked here...

[Kurt B]

You can't just say 'yes' when I mean about the next subject.

I should post this elsewhere in the BBS world, but this is still 'home' I guess.
Okay...now, all this talk of Biological/Chemical attacks.

Still, the most successful attack was just a traditional attack with a heavy toll. Really just akin to a WWII bombing run. Nothing left, now that's it's all over.

I actually Hope the gov't let this kind of stuff "slip by" as they laws dictated. They had lost the ability to do their jobs with the now well known tightening of the intelligence/executive noose over the last 25 or 30 years. Now laws will be passed, and an organization will be geared to face the real threats: Nukes and bios and chems.

My reasons for this 'hope'

Because of all the plans to be let loose, this is the 'big' one, and it's over. Not 100,000 or 200,000 but a mere 7000.

It could have been a nuke in a harbor. We don't know what's in a ship as it pulls up. One nuke, and a million people dead. Or some bio or chemical weapons...
What do you guys think? Was it just our good luck?

If they have a bio weapon, why not have used that instead? I don't get it. Why THIS attack. It seems feeble in comparison to everything else being discussed. Or was this just the best they had today?

Even so, why not sleep longer for a real plan to be executed? Maybe hoping for another 4 years of Clinton--and when Bush came in and they felt things changing, they acted now?

Move this anytime wayne!
And if I'm bumming everyone out with this stuff, let me know and I'll chill somewhere else.

[cabman]

This attack was not just to kill 7000 innocent people.

it was to get the message across, it was to disrupt the US economy, it was to retaliate against US policy. They hate our freedoms, our way of life, they hate women's rights, they hate what we stand for. These people dont believe church separate from state, they believe in "GOD" ruling nation, no democracy...

it wasnt about just murdering 7000 innocent poeple.

it was a lot more than that.

[ras911]

You should post this elsewhere. Take your twisted views away from this board. You actually have the balls to say this was just a " mere 7000" . Tell that to the kids of those firefighters , police and innocents.

Seek professional help for yourself.

[cabman]

Originally posted by ras911:
You should post this elsewhere. Take your twisted views away from this board. You actually have the balls to say this was just a " mere 7000" . Tell that to the kids of those firefighters , police and innocents.

Seek professional help for yourself.

In the big scheme of things, 7000 is really not that many. If you look at the history of civilization, there have been MILLIONS killed....

WWI, WWII, when that damn burst in China in 1977 and killed a couple million...and so on and so forth. one life is not worth and does not hold more value over another.

i believe Kurt was just trying to make a point. you should really go back and read the whole posting and look at the whole synopsis of the posting instead of just picking "mere 7000" out of context and making a decision that way.

btw, some would think we ALL need professional help.

[Kurt B]

Ras: You went way off on me there. 7,000 is a lot...but the methods were pretty basic. And it is not much compared to a plague epidemic. You should read what the Japanese accomplished in a few weeks in China. Not 7,000. But over a Million. In the grand scheme of modern warfare, this was a basic as a WWI bombing.

I am concerned that this 7,000 will turn into 100,000 or 200,000, maybe more. Or maybe even places in the US that will never be inhabitable again for hundreds of generations...this is where I am looking. If this is the end, then that 7,000 is what it is now, totally awful, but now everyone seem to be talking about so much more.

[old_skul]

Uh, Kurt, ras was pissed because you belittled the worth of the 7,000 or so people killed. Just so you know.

In terms of chem and bio attacks, there's a really good article up now on ABCNews.com that answers a lot of the questions posed here. Yes, there's a danger. Will there be an attack of this magnitude? Maybe.

I sure hope not. But the more I think about it, the closer I am to having an "emergency bag" packed, with tough clothing and foodstuffs to keep me alive until I can drive out of harm's way should something happen upwind of me.

------------------
Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2
1987 Escort 5-speed 1.9 RIP
The Porsche Owners Gallery

[Kurt B]

I did not mean to belittle the 7,000. You guys remember what I was like when it happened.

Right Mark, me too. But it may be pointless. Water supply? How do i wear a suit against VX in the water?

Get bottled...they can sabotage that too.

You'll need the mask, gloves etc. You have to cover your whole body. See, this is starting to get weird if you want a good chance of surviving it. You'll need a really 'special' suit for surviving nukes.

I've moved to this place now.

1) Do nothing unless it is decisive. And when I say decisive, no government with the philosophy [will] and the means to destroy us can be left standing [notice gov't not the people--people get a puppet gov't]OR
2) Kick back and chill. This postpones the problems for many years if we're careful and kiss enough of the world's @ss. Maybe it's time we do that. There may be no other choice.

They will tell us sooner or later, but probably sooner, that Israel will have to go of course. There will be no end with it there.

Even if it 'left' one day. Then our interests would just keep being pushed farther than farther away from the middle-east until they could develop all the weapons on their own.

Then one day BOOOM the earth explodes. No Athiest Russian state will be there who wants humanity to live on like we do. It'll be some back-@ssed religious gov't for sure.

I think the end is nigh folkies. Yup, I do I do. We have hell to pay now, a high hell, but it only gets higher. Every bet we make now is double or nothing. You all see that right?



[This message has been edited by Kurt B (edited 09-24-2001).]

[BRAINIAC]

(cupping hands over my ears) La la la la la la I can't hear you! la la la la la la la ...



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Tyson Schmidt
72 911 Cabriolet
92 C-2 Cabriolet

[Saffs]

Yeah, Kurt, I think we'll all blow our selves up at some stage in the next decades. It seems peace is unattainable - well, easy, just look at History. We - they - whoever - will thwart our given "evils" and it will reshape and reappear at some point. Technology gives greater scope (e.g the Terrorists use of credit cards or the 'net) and the losses will escalate.
Well, is it #1 or #2....
Yep. I'm a dark mood tonight too....but no emergency bag, I'll never be that organized.

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'75 911S Targa
'81 BMW Alpina C1 2.3

[This message has been edited by Saffs (edited 09-24-2001).]

[Bill Wagner]

Mr. Bin Laden is pushing the world very, very close to the brink of nuclear war...but a one sided war.

If he and his army of mental jack-asses launched a biological/chemical/nuclear attack on us (or anyone else for that matter), I think the response would likely be a nuclear one, with the targets being all states that host terrorists. Such an action would really put us, and really the rest of the world as well, in an "either we survive or they do" position. Hopefully these terrorist nations understand this, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I really think this may happen if the Bin Ladens of the world are allowed to continue their schemes without opposition and continue to get support from nations like Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, etc.

What blows my mind about Bin Laden is that he issues a threat today saying that if we attack him and/or Afghanistan we'll be sorry. So just exactly are we supposed to do? Let this guy continue to bomb us and possibly poison us with biological and chemical weapons? He's already made it VERY, VERY, CLEAR that he wants to KILL ALL OF US regardless of race, color, creed, sex, or age. HE WANTS TO KILL ALL OF US!

I really think we are closer to nuclear war now than we were during the Cuban crisis in the sixties.

Just my opinions,

Bill Wagner

P.S. If there are any followers of Islam reading this site, this man has SINGLE HANDEDLY done more damage to your faith than anyone else on Earth!!!!!!!!!!! There comes a time when YOU need to stand up and stop this before the entire world is brought to a state of disaster!!!!!

[layzee]

This really isn't the place for discussing this but it is an important issue on everyones minds so here goes.

Having been in the US at the time of the attacks (scary indeed), I think the response in the first week or so was appropriate. However, this talk of biological warfare is worrying.

Surely if Al-Queda wanted to just kill people then the targets chosen would have been different. The White House, Pentagon and WTC are all significant economic and politcal symbols and their destruction has/would have caused large economic upset. Consider this, if simply killing was the idea, why not fly a few planes into some baseball stadiums? Surely that would have a higher death toll.

I think I agree with Kurt that biological/chemical warfare seems unlikely. Also, the hysteria growing around it is alarming and not doing anyone any good. IMO, the terrorists have underestimated the response to this and will now be extremely worried that the world is coming to get them. The organisation and planning for this event took many years so any further attacks from what is a small force on foreign soil seem unlikely. At least I hope so.

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Phil Garner
phil.garner@ukonline.co.uk
'72 911E Sporto

[Zendalar]

Now the target was WTC, the next might be Nuclear power plant...That's scary..

[jorisg]

You are all right of course, but to my opinion the most scary objective that they are trying to accomplish by hitting the US in it's most fundamental institutes, is that they are trying to unit all Muslim Fundamental countries. Where we see now that most of those countries do not agree with each other our are even almost at war with each other. The danger is when US will attack whatever Muslim state with out "proof" that many of those countries will not only unite, but will declare the holy war to not only the US but to the whole Free West as we know it. How will we ever be able to stop people who believe that life will only start after death, being in Allah's lap?

Truly scary!

Unfortunately it is not all that simple. Take for instance Israel and their policy towards the Palestinians, as long as we as human race will be this intolerant to "other" people culture and beliefs these problems will not only continue to exist but will continue to escalate as well!

Let's hope for some intelligent people with some common human sense to make the right decisions!


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Joris
75 911S
http://members.xoom.com/joogie/Joogie.htm

[Z-man]

Originally posted by Kurt B:

...I've moved to this place now.

1) Do nothing unless it is decisive. And when I say decisive, no government with the philosophy [will] and the means to destroy us can be left standing [notice gov't not the people--people get a puppet gov't]OR
2) Kick back and chill. This postpones the problems for many years if we're careful and kiss enough of the world's @ss. Maybe it's time we do that. There may be no other choice...

Well, if we just kick back, then the terrorists have won! You see, justice MUST be served. For the American people, and to show the terrorists that they can't just go around blowing up everything.

Yes, there is threat of bio/chem warfare on the USA. I have my bags packed, and a contingency plan in place. That threat should not stop the USA from persuing those who did this devastation. Don't forget: we are strong: we have the power to end their terror!

The terrorists planed and executed a devastating blow on us. But, if properly planned, approved and executed, this terrorist act can and will be their ultimate demise!

That's why President Bush is approaching this whole matter with patient urgency: get the job done ASAP using the proper means.

The fanatical terrorists weren't just looking to kill large quantities of Americans, they were looking to kill our spirit, by attacking what we hold on to most. We are a rich, democratic society. They loathe us for that. They attacked symbols of that. We do not understand the logic of their thinking, their culture. That's just another reason this whole thing doesn't make sense.

Will this go Nuclear, or are we on the brink of WWIII? I don't think so. While the terrorists do have power, and are organized, they are not a major ruling power, nor do they have the control of countries that they want us to believe. Plus, with much of the world rallying on the side of the USA, there isn't much of a contest, logistically speaking.

Let's keep together: this matter will be pursued and resolved. I trust our world's governments will accomplish this.

Ok, I've rambled enough. Thanks.
-Zoltan.

[Early_S_Man]

The terrorists don't seem quite as capable in the hi-tech weapons area as the media would have us believe. Heck, some entire islamic regimes have failed to procure nukes when they were reportedly available from desparate ex-Russian military officers a few years ago ...

If you have ever spoken with ardent young Iraqis, Lebanese, or Iranians, which I have ... their primary focus is the Zionists, and I believe the deadliest tools in their arsenal will be reserved for Israeli soil.

In reality, the news media has overblown the sophistication of the 9-11 attack, and it was more of a nose-thumbing at the USA ... than a serious military attack. I believe the attack was intended to embarass President Bush for what his father accomplished ten years ago, and I don't think the world has seen it that way at all!

Now that bin Laden has called for a Jihad against the American 'Crusaders' ... deliberately giving a religious rather than political/military context to the words of US officials, there can be little doubt about his support for the attack ... even if he isn't willing to admit direct involvement!

It may not be common knowledge, but all commercial USA nuclear power plants are designed to withstand a direct hit from a 747-sized airliner with no leakage of radioactivity! So, that possibility is not a worrisome prospect!

The Superbowl or Rosebowl would be much more vunerable targets if high body counts were the primary objective.

Realistically, though, the next few months will be a very serious game of hide-and-seek for terrorists ... as their careless recordkeeping has given the US Intelligence agencies much fodder to process in just two weeks! There are presently about 150 'detainees' in custody, and I'm sure any that have been released so far will live under serious scrutiny for the next few months or years!

It will take decades to recover our intelligence capability that was emasculated by the Church Committee in the late '70s and eroded seriously by the Clinton Administration over the past eight years, but the building alliance of nations united in this cause can take the hunt to the terrorist's very doorstep ... and make the 30-year old 'Phoenix Program' seem like child's play!
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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa
1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler

[This message has been edited by Early_S_Man (edited 09-25-2001).]

[Pillow]

This one is for you Kurt!

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/25/opinion/25FRIE.html

Granted I strongly urge people to be cautious of the people around you and the situations you are in every day... Be careful and keep your eyes open.

God Bless,


------------------
Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Region

[Kurt B]

The Islamic world will not play second fiddle to a bunch of Jews and White secularists. I don't care what anyone says, this is a religious/ethnic war between poor Muslims and the West, with just a few wealthy Muslims leading the charge.

It won't end until after a lot of bloodshed. But they forced it to come to this--the US and the West drains the prosperity of world a drop at a time. They've decided to put an end to this once and for all, but all they're really going to do is put an end to themselves.

It IS the duty of Muslims in this country and everywhere to shout the diseased among them down themselves, not shout us down for drawing conclusions about all of them, or shout at us for not wanting to get on a plane with some Islamic looking guy, and here's why.


If a bunch of Atheists were out burning churches and bombing temples, shouting "Atheists rise up and defeat religion," I'd be the first guy to take them out.

They'd spell the end of Atheism as just another philosophy if I didn't. But to shout at the Christians "No, leave me alone you meanies. I'm one of the 'nice' Atheists. How dare you." is socio-intellectual terrorism in itself; it's a shell game.

"Can you find the 'rotten Atheist' in this set of folks! You only get one choice, because if you're wrong, he explodes!"

Instead the choice is a LOT easier if all the 'good' atheists were to quietly step away from the one with the bomb. Howcome THAT doesn't happen around here huh?

[Superman]

I hope you're all sitting down. Superman, the liberal pacifist is going to surprize some folks with this:

I agree with Kurt that this is extremely serious and world peace and security have never been in greater danger. I believe that in response to a terrorist attack which used chemical, biological or nuclear force, we WOULD CERTAINLY use nuclear weapons.

I think this is a very difficult challenge and that we must pursue two almost conflicing goals. We must do battle in the Court of Popular Opinion (Middle East opinion) if we ever want to exterminate the problem without having to exterminate all Middle Eastern people, which would be impossible.

And finally, I believe we need to marshall and apply every resource we can muster to the goal of exterminating and annihilating these terrorists and their infrastructure. I favor a sort of carte blanche for friendly forces for a time. That is, I believe we should go in to places where this disease is present, and sterilize the area of all life. I truly believe that an extremely violent and aggressive campaign is warranted at this time. Afterwards, there will continue to be small pockets and as we find them they should receive the same treatment.

If some Middle East contries want to have a life of few freedoms with no technology under a religious dictatorship, free of Western influences, then they can have Afganistan, and we'll promise to forget that place exists.

But the people who would try to kill our people and our Western culture will need to be exterminated.

Now, back to your regular Superman, already in progress.

[patalive]

Whoa! Superman! Having a bad hair day, are we?
-
Chuck

[cstreit]

A couple key points...

1) Bin Laden should not give Moslem's a bad name... If you've ever read the Koran, it does talk about a War on non-believers, but a war of rhetoric, not guns, just like The Bible...just like the Crusades and Inquisitions were a twisted interpretation... He is using religion as an ends to a means and is as crazy as Hitler ever was.

2) Don't you think if we nuke 'em, the world will go against us? Americans, if you haven't noticed, aren't particularly popular anywhere anymore. We meddle too much. What happened to Sepratism? Should go right along with "Don't tread on Me!"

3) Do you really think that Bin Laden, regardless of how nuts he really is, did this because he was jealous of our Mercedes and nice houses? Or again, is it because of all our meddling in the MidEast?

4) Do I want him dead? Absolutely! Will it take ground troops? Most likely! Do we have to do this in cooperation with the rest of the world? Yes! Because if we don't we'll just be labled 'Those dumb f'in Americans are at it again.'

Bush is being smart in rallying 'popular world support' to help stem the tide of 'world unpopular opinion' when this starts getting ugly... He ain't so dumb after all...


[This message has been edited by cstreit (edited 09-25-2001).]