I communicated with the CDI guy, but hit input was largely related to adjusting timing and such. The guidance he had was all about how to properly configure the car when it was running - not when it failed to start entirely.


Sooo... all ready for a good weekend of testing and checking. The first thing I did was pull off my large WUR fuel line to measure the copper crush washer so I can get a new one (as the current one seeps fuel slowly). Then I can test away, and replace that when it arrives.

Decided to pull of the banjo bolt next to it so I could tighten this one more easily. And of course I torqued off the banjo bolt because I forgot bolts with 2 holes in them are weaker than normal ones.

So now I can't do anything requiring fuel pressure or that might generate a spark because of the gas.
Blech. Boo. Grrrr. Going to McMaster Carr to see if I can get new hardware by Monday. They are in Chicago so stuff comes fast at least.

That's disappointing, i.e. you'd think someone with an ability to "rebuild" a simple CDI
unit would have a basic knowledge of solving a no-start condition.

It's unfortunate that you've been lead down a 'path' of possibly wasting time and money
focusing on a fuel problem when you still might have an ignition problem, as you state
that when the car gets warm it won't start:

"Started right up with new CDI, but with high idle. Couldn't bring idle down despite much fiddling with mixture. Card died when it got warmed up, and wouldn't run unless cool."

So now with all your potentially unnecessary dis-assembly and testing of the fuel
system, you may have been mis-lead into that and caused another problem besides
the real problem, e.g. another bad CDI.

Remember your initial troubleshooting:

"With my original CDI box, turning the key resulted in no start. If I disconnected my CDI box cable and connected another CDI box, it would start. From this I concluded that at least the CDI box was failing."

Also remember that after all your initial repairs, your car ran fine until your original
CDI failed.

So, maybe it's time to focus on your "rebuilt" CDI as the real problem, i.e. runs fine
until warm. Consider having your friend again bring his good CDI and at least eliminate
the "rebuilt" CDI as your real problem. It's fairly common for a CDI to not function properly
when warm and recover once the CDI cools down.

It's been over a month now with your problem, with multiple guessing on the part
of many posters and your having wasted time and money because of this. Re-read
your troubleshooting postings, as your results may lead you to your problem.

Hi Dave,
Thanks for your help, I appreciate any and all input. The rebuilt CDI ran the car at the same high idle that the swapped CDI ran at. When I contacted the CDI guy, it wasn't (yet) a no-start, justa high idle.

The car was running until warm with the rebuilt CDI, albeit with an idle we couldn't bring down via mixture or idle adjustment. After several afternoons of tinkering, it ceased to start at all. I then found the large hole in the AAR/AAV tube leading to the cold start valve.

I'll see if my friend can come by and swap CDI's again. Something in the car's overall state changed - after the CDI swap it ran until warm, but now it won't run at all.

Called some local shops and got my banjo bolt. Now I'm looking for torque specs for the WUR connections. Didn't find any in the Bentley book.

That's not that critical, i.e. just tighten the connections enough so they don't leak.
If you're really concerned, you can always check them later.

Once all the obvious and known problems are fixed, determine whether the no-start
condition is fuel or spark related. Use some carb/brake cleaner sprayed into the
air cleaner intake, i.e. a very small amount. If the engine fails to fire/start, remove
the coil wire from the distributor and place the end about 10mm from the fan housing
while cranking. If no spark, work back to determine whether it's the CDI or the pickup.

Just tested cold start valve - nice smooth conical spray. Pain getting it on and off though...

Spark check next, when I return from Summerfest!

The engine needs to crank for the CDI to produce a spark.

That question was just one of our regular spammers repeating earlier posts to build post count. Out to do spark checks!

TDC cylinder one rotor position in relation to distributor alignment Mark with dizzy adjustment to mid point of range
(Just sayin')

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435959129.jpg

I've got shielded wires, so I can't check the back two. But the timing light is showing spark on the four I can reach (and of course the main wire to the distributor). I also sprayed some carb cleaner into the airbox, without noticeable effect.

I did turn the key to ON and lift the sensor plate for a few seconds to inject a little fuel into each intake. The second time I tried that, it actually ran for about 6 or 7 seconds, albeit at a very slow idle. Pushing the throttle didn't bring the idle up during that brief time. It stalled with a baby backfire after that.

I can see the sensor plate jumping up and down when we are cranking, so I presume we are pulling a good vacuum.

Regarding the AAV, I don't have a vacuum pump to perform the normal test linked by Tirwin (although they are easy to get if I need one.) I'll see about getting one from HF. Next I am going to make plugs for the deceleration valve.

The thermotime switch must be operating at startup, because the cold start valve is dispensing fuel properly. The TTV blocks the vacuum to the WUR until after the engine has been running for 30 seconds. So presumably, I can just block off that hose on both ends and the engine should still start, right?

So it would seem we have spark, air, and fuel (albeit unknown fuel pressure).

I was unable to get the AAV out easily - looks like I'll have to pull off the fuel distributor again if I really want to check that part.

I looked at removing the throttle body "excess" connections for the deceleration valve, but they are in back and I can't get a good grip on them to pull them off. I might need to remove the throttle body again if I want to do that.

Next I looked to the thermal valve connection. I decided to try pulling it's power plug so it stays open. I disconnected the power to the thermal valve and it started up. Strong initial idle and so forth. A few odd noises in the idle, and still the harmonic air noise I thought I'd fixed by patching the vacuum leak. But over the next 25 seconds or so RPM dropped until it stalled out.

It was exciting to hear the engine running again! Back to work testing thing...

Whilst looking at Jim's Basement Workshop, I learned that I had the thermo valve hoses reversed. I put them back on correctly (inner to throttle body, outer to WUR) and plugged it back in.

I started it a few more times and it puttered poorly at first, although in one instance it revved itself up to 4-5K and I shut it off. I turned the idle back down to about 2 turns out. I'll keep messing with it.

More testing.
Engine is a little warm now from testing things. Intake runners still touchable.
With thermo valve electrical connection disconnected, starts right away and revs towards red line - I have to shut it off as it reaches 5K pretty quickly.

With themo valve connected electrically, it sputters and dies after some attempts at idling, except one time where it overcame the low idle, and started to run to red line.

This is with the idle adjust fully closed (turned inward). Maybe air is getting around the throttle plate? Very weird.

More testing. I was thinking the deceleration valve might be the problem - staying open and letting it rev up high. So I pulled it out and blocked off it's input and output lines, as well as the vacuum sense line on top (and the WUR/TTV line the sensing line shares).

Still a VROOOM right to redline (after some very brief sputtering).

I had my wife watch, and the sensor plate is moving up during that redline race. And it sounds smooth during that part, so I think this is metered air.

So if the throttle is closed and the deceleration valve is closed, how does metered air get past? Pretty much only the AAV and AAR, right? The AAR only closes slowly, with heat, and the engine isn't even that hot. I can however pull it off pretty easily and check it out. But I am pondering if maybe the hard-to-get AAV is the culprit, and I'm going to have to disassemble stuff again.

Thoughts? I am thinking about dinner over here, and taking a rest to let thoughts simmer.

Just a couple of thoughts here:

@ David the OP: The fact that the engine revs up shows that you don't have a spark issue. Think about this a little more. The function of the throttle body is just that: it restricts the amount of metered air being able to enter into the engine and thus "throttles" the engine and that is what keeps the RPM down at idle. Without significant mechanical load there isn't much air required and thus the throttle plate should be almost all the way closed at idle. Air only enters through the idle bypass screw around the throttle plate.

In your case you must have too much air being able to get into the engine allowing it to rev up. Either it can bypass the throttle body (AAV, AAR, or idle bypass screw) or the throttle plate isn't properly closed and thus the RPM climbs up so quickly. In both cases the air is metered (going through the metering device and deflecting the sensor plate)

I don't have a lot of hands-on experience with CIS but from what I read the idle speed is to be set with the idle bypass screw only. The throttle plate needs to be closed. Don't use the throttle stop for adjusting idle. Others might chime in here.

@Loren: slow day at the office huh, or what makes you spew all that BS?!?! Grow some hair and post under your real name or !#@& off....

Ingo

Thanks Ingo, that is along the lines of what I was speculating. The idle screw is all the way closed, so it looks like I'll be taking a look at those other three paths: AAR, AAV, and throttle plate.

I can check AAR pretty easily, so I'll do that first. Assuming that isn't it, next is taking off at the spaceship boot (that is now the official name for that top rubber thing). That will let me re-check the throttle body and ensure the plate is properly positioned.

If it isn't the throttle, then I have to move or remove the fuel regulator, and get at the AAV. At least I know how to do this stuff now!

Check your AAR pipe repair for leaks. Did you test it before instLlation?

I didn't pressure check the AAR pipe. But the hole was covered with a large solid pasting of JB Weld, so I am sure there is no air passing it there.

Took off the spaceship boot and what do you know? The throttle plate was being held open because somehow I had the linkage between the arm and the base plate (on top of the engine shroud) set too short. So the throttle was incapable of closing all the way.

That was a quick change, and I put the spaceship boot back on.

She started right up, and ran pretty decently at ~1200 or so RPM until she started to warm, about 1:30 later. Then her idle dropped and she started hunting, and eventually stalled. I tried upping the idle some via the screw, but that just delays the stall. I also tried turning it a little lean. At 1/2 lean, she dies right away. At 1/2 and 1 turn rich, she hunted a lot before dying. I tried 1/4 turn rich, and she ran a little longer before dying.

I am still hearing the hollow air noise I've heard over the past months.

These turns are in relation to the trip point where the injectors spray or don't spray, with fuel pump on and sensor plate at rest.

Progress? I think so.

I think you are at a point where you first need to confirm the AAR and AAV to be functional and you don't have any leaks left. Then you need tools to MEASURE CIS control pressure and timing to get things right.

I know how tempting it is to try and "nail" it by an empirical approach but without a systematic procedure and measurements there are too many variables at play and most of them are co-dependent. E.g. You might find a combo where by luck idle is somewhat O.K. but then mixture will be way off elsewhere or cold-start will be affected.

Good luck,
Ingo