74 rebuild choice.....

[guy746]

OK so I am in the process of beng a proud owner of a 1974 Targa 2.7.... 75k.
( Don't mind the spelling )
Started off at $7,500 and I had a nice $1,500 paint job put on it...

????? good idea to throw in another 3K for a rebuild or not...... ( huge break as far as I can tell )

It was sold to my shop cheap ( an air line pilot who lost there job ), then had major service and a new clutch, then something like a warm idle??? replaced, Then the Tensioner started making noise, turned out to be bad ( collapsed if that makes sense ), they upgraded it to the newer oil tensioner. Then we had some electrical issues which involved replacing acouple other items, I noticed the gas tank was leaking, so they replaced the gas tank with a new one. In the process the saw that there was some rust under the car so they cut out the front middle section and replaced it. ( Did a great job!!!). No more rust under car now.. New Targa top also

So this has all been covered by them so far. Needs new carper and seat covers but big deal.

The car was not driven allot before this and the engine just seems like its time for a rebuild. The head mechanic offered to to do a soup to nuts Top to bottom rebuild on the engine for ~3-4k...

So that makes this 74 targa with new paint, new rebuild, everything worked over ~$12,000.....

Is it just to much to put in this car????? Other than an alternater and maybe new shocks I don't think there would be anything left to do on it.

or did I just end up paying to much for a dead cow....

-Guy

PS the shops is a small well know porsche place, they have ~12 porsches for sale and work on them all day long... More of a Mom and Pop type place with a good reputation with porsche owners....

[jester911]

It sounds like with all that has been done that you have a pretty solid car. If I were you I would look into doing a leakdown and compression test. It may not need a total rebuild. With relatively low miles it might only need top end rebuild.
One thing about the money it will be very hard to get out of if what you put in.
Now that you have put this much into it you will want to reap the fruits of your labor. I think you are too close now to not finish it and then have some fun driving it

[McDaniel]

Sounds like a good deal to me. I don't think with that few miles
you need a complete rebuild. I wouldn't listen, and when I tore
mine down the bottom end was like new, even had the original
hone marks on the cylinders. You probably need to go to the
newer head bolts on the 2.7 though.
Did you do the top or have it done? Mine has the folding top
and I am going to replace the outer skin for sure, and not sure
yet about the headliner.
Hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine.

[twin plugged targa]

1st off, congrats and welcome to the board.
Guys here will most likely help you thru most of your attempts at repairs rebuilds. They are generally a good bunch of guys and will save you $$$$$$$ ask me how I know
Sounds like you have a fair car at a fair price!.
Try not to throw too much money at it straight off. As with the others, I would have a compression test and if necc. do a top end build and replace head studs.
other advice would be to buy Waynes new 101 projects book- I just did and it is v. informative good value!.
It makes daunting jobs easier for us wannabee mechanics.
Enjoy your ride
rgds Ben

[guy746]

The topic of a rebuild came up when on two seprate occasions I jumped in the car when it was cold and started driving.... Afetr about 15mins the tempature gauge was climbing upto 300degrees.... Then I stoped and left it cool down. Then it started acting normal again.... Does not happen everytime. ( infact it happened on cool nights, so outside heat was not an issue )

We put a new heat sensor to see if it was something electrical. The head guy said he has never seen anything like it before. If it happens again he suggested the rebuild for the money......
Thats how the rebuild came up and the fact the car is louder than normal... ( does not leak oil though )

-Guy

[Chuck Moreland]

Firstly, welcome to the club (ownership) and the board.

Secondly, you haven't said anything that indicates this engine needs a rebuild.

Things that might make you think about a rebuild -

- Excessive oil consumption
- Poor compression
- Pulled headstuds

You haven't indicated any of these problems, but they are all things that should be checked/monitored on this new-to-you car.

Note some oil consumption is normal, most experts say up to 1 qt / 600 miles. A puff of smoke on startup is also normal (I'm talking about the car, not you).

Note the 2.7 liters are known for pulling headstuds, many got rebuilt in the 40k mile range. Yours may be one of them. With a proper rebuild and updates, pulled studs are no longer a problem.

However, the '74 are less inclined to do this. That's because they had the superior early heat exchangers instead of the *****y thermal reactors.

Headstuds aside, 75k for these engines is not "old and tired", it is barely broken in. Most on this board consider 75k a low mileage car for any 80s 911, let alone a '74. My '77 with 2.7 liter has about 240k miles.

In the absence of special problems, Porsche engines last a Looooong time, 200k-300k between rebuilds.

Your temp problem sounds electrical to me. 300F is ridiculously hot for a 911, and if you car only did this once on a cool night I doubt it is really that hot.

What temperature does it normally read?


Lastly, $3k-4k for a rebuild is too cheap for a proper rebuild. For that money all he will do is replace your rings, gaskets and seals, probably do a valve job. There is no money left for machine work or new P&Cs.

[Doug Zielke]

Re-read the last paragraph of Chuck's post.
If you are getting a "soup to nuts" rebuild of a 2.7 motor for only $4k then your mechanic is:

1) Working for free.
2) Finding parts in a dumpster behind a Porsche dealership.
3) Doing the all-important machining with a Dremel.
4) Setting you up for a sting.

Find another mechanic while you can.

[JSDSKI]

Guy, sounds like a great car and IMHO you haven't spent too much cash (yet) and it has been spent in all the right places.

But do some searches here for cost and definition of a "rebuild". There are rebuilders and then there are guys who unbolt an engine, slap some new rings in (or even pistons and cylinders), hand lap the valves, and air wrench it back together again with a bunch of Permatex, and the engine never leaves the concrete floor.... this is not meant as a slur against this particular shop! Most quality rebuilds to factory specs in the $6K range and move up. Get Wayne's 101 Project to read about rebuilding decisions.

Ask some local PCA members and/or Pelicanheads in your area to refer you to some other shops and follow Ben's advice regarding compression and leakdown tests and do a follow up "Post Purchase Inspection". Then you are dealing with real data.

75K is pretty light mileage for a full on rebuild, even for a 2.7. Your car is probably a 49 state car and shouldn't have as many mag case / head stud issues as the California spec car.

[ChrisBennet]

For $4000 you should get a top end rebuild, not a full rebuild. Indeed, you may be "all set" when this is done as the valve guides will wear out much sooner than the rest of the motor.

While I agree that "doing the head studs" is good advice, performing this operation requires more than just a top end rebuild for a 2.7 because you need to install Timeserts or case savers. Either of these operations is usually done at a machine shop so the engine has to be completely disassembled. With the aluminum cased motors like SC's and Carrera's this isn't a problem, you just replace the studs.
-Chris

[grant lyon]

No expert on the engine oil thermostat, but I'd think about the oil temp thermostat as a potential source of the 300 degrees incident. (I've never had problems with the one in my 2.7.) But, if it is sticking, the thermostat could cause the high oil temperature you're seeing. OTOH if your temp gauge suddenly jumped from normal to pegged then electrical problem are indicated. Suggest you search on oil thermostat problems.

Other thoughts:
You've got the fan belt on right? Also, shine a light pass the blower fan and see if anything is on top of the cylinder heads. If paper were to get sucked into the engine, weird things can happen. Don't ask... . PO told me a story of woe from the paint shop.

[Bobboloo]

Talk of a rebuild is premature at this point.

First, you need to find out what is up with the temperature.

Second, you can then test the motor for it's conditon.

Third, I would have someone else look at the car because if someone suggested a rebuild based on that info I would walk.

Bobby

[Wayne 962]

READ THIS FIRST:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/mult_Engine_Rebuild/mult_engine_rebuild-1.htm

And keep in mind that a quality rebuild will cost about $8K. Anything less, and you are getting less-than-a-quality-rebuild. Subtract about $2000-$2500 if you are rebuilding it yourself.

-Wayne

[htbetz]

I'm doing mine in reverse of yours. Motor has been rebuild. Next was all the little things - lights, sunroof etc. The last thing left is paint to complete the job/restoration. I'm finding out that a good paint job can be as costly as engine work. Oh well, it runs great.

[guy746]

Is it possible to start doing the Top end rebuild... ( which sounds like case sense its 75k on a 2.7 ) then see whats inside to decide what type of shape the engine is in......

The guy that owned it before didn't do a great job maintaining it. As I said the Chain tensioners where bad, there was a ton of things that needed to be updated, engine lifter noise is pretty load , and the longer I drive it the more oil it seems to be showing up. ( started smokeing a little more today from a oil leak. )

I will say that the offer to do a rebuild seemed a honest offer in the face of additional issues cropping up.... Maybe we just need to talk about a top end rebuild then.

-Guy

[JSDSKI]

Get another shop's opinion. One that hasn't seen the car. I'd go to a Pelicanite or PCA member recommended shop and pay for a compression test, leakdown and PPI. Everything else is just a guess at this point. You may just need a valve adjustment and tune. But once the engine is out - then you are in "well, as long as you're in there, you might as well update the...." land - a very expensive vacation resort.

[Chuck Moreland]

You haven't said anything that indicates you need a rebuild.

Most all 911s leak oil. If they aren't leaking oil, that means they don't have any oil in them. Some oil leaks end up on the exhaust and can smoke. No big deal. If the leaks are bad, fix the leaks.

75k is not time for a top end rebuild on a 2.7.

You should perform a valve adjustment, a compression test, and check the head studs. Then report the results here. This board will be incredibly helpful to you.

I would not be so trusting of your mechanic. Based on your limited posts above, he has already given you bad information. My advice may be worth exactly what you paid for it. However, I've owned and wrenched on Porsches for close to 20 years and a 2.7 for most of that time. And I have no vested interest in what you do.

Do your self a favor, keep your wallet in the pocket and take care of the above maintenance / diagnostic items.

[bigchillcar]

Yep, I second that, Chuck. Don't throw good money after bad. Bottom line...you'll get plenty of opportunities to spend money on your baby in the future, so don't spend amymore than is absolutely necessary without getting another Pelicanite's objective opinion. Take a deep breath, slow down and keep your wallet under control.
Ryan

[speeder]

Fix the oil leaks and drive it. The others are right, your mechanic doesn't know what's up w/ these cars if he thinks he can quote you that price on a "complete rebuild, top to bottom", w/o even knowing what he will find. IMO, and many other's, mid-year 2.7 CIS engines are not worth rebuilding; for what it costs to make them right you can buy and install a 3.6 from a 1990s 911, or for less $$, a 3.0 or 3.2 that has a lot more power and is reliable, plus adds value to these cars.

You do not want to have any more $$ in a 1974 targa that needs an interior, ("needs new carper(sic) and seat covers"), you will be way upside down and could have owned a car that is considerably more Porsche. Here is to hoping that you can have some fun w/ it w/o spending any more. Good luck!

[guy746]

thats the trouble... 9k is a good price range, spend a liitle $ on the inside like carpet and I was set.... , but it seems like this 2.7 never had a topend rebuild before 75k and I am reading all over the place that it needs one...

Then again even if it ends up being 14k for everything, I have allot of new parts, a rebuilt engine, something I can trust going out of town with, and best of all I am driving a porsche for less then the cost of a crappy new car...

-Guy