High millage '87, bad buy?

[Purie]

Hi all

I've been lusting over 911’s for a long time and done all my research. I am curious however, if buying a '87 Targa with over 230,000 miles would be a mistake.

I am a competent mechanic and have done some restoration work, but my fear would be that when the time comes to sell, how much would the millage hurt me?

I am going to try to have a look this weekend, so if it doesn't look like to much of a scary project, I might buy.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

Josh

[timmy2]

All depends on the maintenance history.

[Purie]

What if the seller has no history? I assume the engine has had work done and the seller mentioned the ac needs work.

I am also assuming the engine has it's traditional leaks.

If everything works and it doesn't have rust, it may be hard to resist.

[tadink]

Might be OIK, but be sure to have a PPI done by someone who knows Porsches!!!!

[Purie]

Originally Posted by tadink

Might be OIK, but be sure to have a PPI done by someone who knows Porsches!!!!

Oh right! Thanks for the reminder about a PPI.

[timmy2]

No maintenance history and just stories brings the price way down.
Assume nothing has been done unless the seller can back it up.
I bought my car at a 40% -50% reduction in price with no history.
But that was 4 summers ago when SC's were under 12K

[Ian Comerford]

I would disagree about some of the above, it's not all about the maintenance history, especially if you do not have a limitless budget. Cars of this age with full history are not everywhere and you reach a point where condition is more important. A car with limited or no history but with good condition in all of the right places is not too risky.

[gamin]

I agree with what Ian said. A lot of owners of older 911's do their own work and never see a dealer or shop. Count me in that group. It's part of the fun. I have a lot of Pelican receipts. Do they count as "maintenance history"? Fellow in the local area just bought a '87 with 210K on the clock. Assume he is happy. If it runs, drives, handles, and brakes well and passes comp/leak test and isn't rusty I'd go for it. These cars last a long time.

[ben parrish]

I am in the camp of no real "history". I've had this car for over 17 years and it has only ever had one visit to a shop and that was for an alignment after a complete suspension refresh. I haven't kept receipts for every maintenance item I have bought...actually don't think I can produce one. I changed the clutch out 15 years ago; replaced the all suspension bits 4 years ago; routinely change oil and adjust valves as needed; resealed the intake system 8 years ago; on and on and on.
Records are great if they are there but the condition of a car speaks volumes more than a stack of receipts. I've seen ragged out cars that have books of receipts for repairs. Sometimes receipts and records tell a story of an owner that has zero mechanical abilities, abusive habits and a mechanic that sees opportunities to ride the gravy train.

[McLaren-TAG]

Originally Posted by Purie

when the time comes to sell

It's very liberating to not give two craps about what happens to the car after I'm dead or no longer able to drive it (which ever comes first).

However for those that aren't in that situation; At that mileage, if there's no rust and the car is in relative good working order, it's not been bastardized electrically and you're happy with the appearance ... you'd assume that you'd refresh the suspension and brakes first and then at some point rebuild the engine and transmission. Then you could put another 150k miles on it.

[RDUNCe30]

I bought an 82 SC with about 202,000 miles on it last spring. The previous owner (a well known Porsche mechanic on the west coast) had the car for about ten years and did the work himself. Before that, there were no records. So from 1982 until about 2004, there were no records at all. The PO told me he doubted the engine had ever been opened up.

I trusted the PO after speaking with him and seeing what others who knew him personally wrote about him and the car.

So I bought the car without having seen it and without a PPI. When I met the transport driver, he had already backed the car out and was standing there with a grin on his face. He said, "You got a good one!"

Now, I was really nervous while waiting for the car to show up. Unlike some on PP and RL, I do not have tens of thousands of dollars to toss around, so I sweated out the first few drives. I have been very happy with the deal; I still smile when I walk in the garage; and I always look back at the car when I park.

It has some small paint chips, the A/C compressor was gone when I bought it (all other parts still installed but pretty worn out looking), and the engine is dirty.

But the feeling of driving the car is hypnotic and very addicting. I bought it to drive, not to flip. And with all the miles, I honestly don't know if it would be as valuable to anyone else as it is to me.

So far, I have put about 3000 miles on the car in a year, would have been more if work had cooperated. I have changed the oil twice - once when I got it and just last month.

I changed the shifter bushings as a bonding experience. I tweaked the interior a little bit, but kept all the parts.

The engine is bone stock - maybe that is a key. No pop-off valve - PO didn't believe in them. Original exhaust system - I try not to think about trying to change that out with those rusty studs...

I probably did a lot of things "wrong" when buying my car, but I have a 911 that I am happy with. Maybe I was lucky, but I agree that these old cars, when given basic care and respect, seem to be pretty darn tough and more fun than any other car I have had.

Sam

[jkh2cpu]

Records? I quit the Porsche dealer in 1974 after they overfilled
the transmission by two pints... That wrecked the clutch. I tried
one more time with them in 1975 when I wanted the car aligned.
I watched what they were doing and knew that they were turning
the wrong nuts... I had the manual as well, and I had read it ;-)

I've used machinists and body guys when necessary, but most of
that 1973 is easy enough to work on.

[wayner]

I would think that once these cars become 30 and 40 years old, mileage of the entire car doesn't matter much anymore. Like airplanes, a smart buyer is looking more at how long ago the last engine rebuild was and how many hours are left on it.

I'd rather deal with mechanical work than rust any day (and I'm pretty good at dealign with rust as my build thread demonstrates)

If it was a Ferrari, I'd say mileage is a huge factor since they tend to be used and collected differently than Porsches.

If you are concerned about the affect of mileage on resale, list it as unknown. My 73 had 113 on the clock, but I ignored that, assuming it had been around the clock a few times, but who really knows? Instead I did my due diligence assessing the car as it sat.

..now, if this car was for a collection, all that goes out the window. Two types of collectors, the ones who take pride in zero mile cars, and those who take pride in million mile cars that still last.

I think there is a threshold around 20 or 30 years where all the common wisdom goes out the window (mileage, buy a 3.2 because they shift better, buy a galvanized car because it guarantees no rust) ...hogwash, 3.2 G50s tranny's are now are old and expensive to rebuild, and galvanized cars eventually rust if bodies are not maintained.

[SoyRacer]

I'd happily buy a 230,000 mile car in good condition and feel confident that the chassis and components have proven their durability. Rubber deteriorates and gaskets compress. Look at the key wear areas and try to be critically objective. Buying a 911 is an act of the heart and you may be blinded though. If you're still on the fence though . . . don't hesitate to pass this opportunity on - (I'm always interested in a good 911 deal).

[timmy2]

To clarify, my statement about maintenance was not about a stack of dealership bills.
It was more about the known history of the car. How many owners, where has the car been, what has and hasn't been done to it etc. my 82,000 mile car was in rough shape due to a really bad mechanic who didn't have a clue about air cooled engines and how to work on them.

Maybe I should have just said figure out the history and perform a PPI if you can, or have one done.

[Josh D]

These are sturdy cars and infinitely rebuildable.

With that said, high mileage is a tool used by the buyer to lower the price in anticipation of work needing to be done. This works in your favor if your the buyer, but can work against as a seller unless you can prove the high expense items have been taken care of.

I wouldn't shy away from a well maintained high mileage 911 if my plan was to keep the car indefinitely. You're already talking about resale before buying, so in your case I'd look for a lower mileage car.

[Dauner]

I have posted quite a bit about my high mileage car, but will nutshell: 1989 3.2 Targa with 202K miles, no records, assumed engine never opened up, PPI came back OK, price was slightly below market value. After a test drive and the PPI, wrote a check and drove it home from Wichita KS to Hudson WI with my brother, an SC owner. The car used a quart approximately every 500 miles and still does. There is very little rust. Most people would think its rust free. I know where the small spots are. I put about 5K miles a year on it between april and october. I am on year number 5 of ownership, and every year the car has been improved by me in one way or another. Most recently is new ball joints and turbo tie rods last fall and new bilstein inserts two months ago. Biggest project so far was dropping motor and replacing timing chains over the winter.

The best thing i ever did was to call all of the Porsche mechanics over my first winter in the area where the car spent its whole life, and built a wonderful collection of receipts. I also got the entire vehicle registration history from the state of OK for 7 dollars (car lived in Tulsa whole life, Wichita owner got the car in a financial transaction).

I personally struggle with the "what's my car worth" thing, but realize that it will never be a collector car, and so just drive and maintain it. It isn't crazy fast, but 1st and 2nd gear are still pretty impressive, even with all of those miles. The G50 is really nice.

I have quite the collection of Pelican receipts.

I have been mentally preparing for my second engine drop where i will either do a top end, top and bottom end, or top, bottom, and 3.2 to 3.4 upgrade.

My goal is to never be upside down with the car, but will be OK if it happens. Life is short.

This forum is absolutely incredible. I wish i could buy everyone a beer that has offered their wisdom, advice, etc. there have been a lot of you.

I believe the 911 is the 23rd car i have owned. First 6 were VW beetles (back in the 80's when you could buy a clean super beetle for $600).

When it comes to repair capability, i resort to the Henry Ford "whether you think you can do it or you think you can't, you are probably right"

Good luck...

[doublebuffle]

It sounds like you like working on cars, in that case the countless project will keep you busy!

It is, what it is. Look at the rear parcel, fender inners, rockers, and under the rocker panels for rust. If you can see it, there's more. Have a PPI done or do one yourself. Remove the valve covers and check the head studs.

High mileage does not mean bad. There is no "gauge" to tell you how it was stored or maintained. The 3.2 was pretty well sorted, longer rebuild intervals than other air-cooled engines.

[Trackrash]

I would want to know some history on the car. I mean a nearly 40 yo car? And lets say the owner has no idea if the motor has every been out? Something to consider for sure.

A common thread in this post is doing your own work. Many of us owners of older 911s do most of our own work. Paying others to do maintenance on these cars can be costly.

I recently met a guy who about a year ago bought a very nice 993. A year later he needed a valve job. That cost him $10k.

Just saying...

[Purie]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Its given me the confidence to give this car a serious shot.

Like Dauner mentioned, I don't want to get myself seriously upside down. For example I bought my '99 M3 for $10k and have close to $8k invested into the car. I'll be lucky to get $13k for a car with 154k miles on it. My mistake was over paying when buying the car and over investing when the market hadn't come around on it. I don't want to make the same mistake again.

It's not to say I didn't like the car. In fact it's my favorite car out of the 14 I've owned. But only after a year and a half, I'm ready to move on.

Anyways, from the sound of the description it might be a condition 3 or 4 car, going off of Hagerty's scale. Paint looks bad but body looks straight, interior looks fair, and the ac needs work. I'm thinking an offer around $22k would be fair of everything else checks out OK.

I would share the car with you all, but I'm afraid of losing another 911 after 4 years of trying.

Cheers