Living with a mid-year car vs. an SC

[Otter74]

I introduced myself a few weeks or so ago with some questions, since I'm searching for a car to buy. I have mostly been looking at SCs, with occasional Carreras and mid-year cars. I've seen and read up enough to wonder this: given mid-year cars that have received a 3.0 engine transplant, is there any real difference in living with a 74-77 vs. living with a 78-83 SC? Given identical powertrains and solid bodies, I don't see a lot of difference. mid-years have narrower rear fenders and narrower tires to go with them, so I imagine the handling balance might be slightly different, all other things being equal. Or maybe not. And many of them have had SC flares and wider tires added anyway. If you have working AC, it's going to be mediocre on either car. Pre-77 cars have unassisted brakes and opening vent windows, but that's about all I can see.

[OsoMoore]

The SC's have better rust proofing than earlier cars. Peter Zimmerman has a great book on the differences to consider when buying an air-cooled Porsche - look for The Used 911 Story.

[Josh D]

The cars are really not that different and a lot of parts interchange. The SC was just another step in the evolution that included some improvements over the previous cars. The changes are well documented in many publications and other resources such as the buyers guide here on Pelican.

The biggest difference in my eyes would be when it came time for an engine rebuild. The magnesium cases of the 2.7 require special attention in the form of machine work that adds a significant cost. If this work is already done on a potential purchase, all the better.

[Otter74]

Thank you. I knew at least *something* going in, and I've looked through some of the known sources to learn more. I've considered a couple of '76s with SC powertrains, and some SCs and a Carrera or two. Between the '76s and the SCs, they've both got fully galvanized bodies and SC powertrains with cats, which seems to take care of most of the meaniingful differences. Of course if you look at, say a '76 Targa vs. an '83 Targa you are looking at a 32 year old car vs. a 39 year old car and the older car is more likely to have age-related issues, but I just can't see much meaningful difference aside from the few things I mentioned in the original post. Is there anything I'm missing?

Originally Posted by Josh D

The cars are really not that different and a lot of parts interchange. The SC was just another step in the evolution that included some improvements over the previous cars. The changes are well documented in many publications and other resources such as the buyers guide here on Pelican.

The biggest difference in my eyes would be when it came time for an engine rebuild. The magnesium cases of the 2.7 require special attention in the form of machine work that adds a significant cost. If this work is already done on a potential purchase, all the better.

[Eli W]

I don't think you are missing anything. Like you pointed out the cars were fully galvanized after 76. I have a 77 S that I really enjoy.

Mine has a twin plug 3.2 engine in it right now and it is just a blast to drive. It was actually a 79 3.0 that was rebuilt to 3.2 liters with bigger pistons. The SCs are great cars for sure, but I love my mid year. I put on chrome side mirrors to give it a more old school look, it already came with the duck tail. I can tweak the car and make it what I want and don't have to get hung up about keeping it all original. Regardless of which year 911 you look at it all comes down to how well it is sorted out.

[Josh D]

Originally Posted by Otter74

Of course if you look at, say a '76 Targa vs. an '83 Targa you are looking at a 32 year old car vs. a 39 year old car and the older car is more likely to have age-related issues, but I just can't see much meaningful difference aside from the few things I mentioned in the original post. Is there anything I'm missing?

No, I think you get it. But consider a '76 Targa that's been garage kept could be in overall better condition than an '83 Targa thats sat out in the rain irregardless of the 7 year difference.

It really all comes down to condition.

[Reiver]

Regardless of which year 911 you look at it all comes down to how well it is sorted out.

^^^^ this

[RNajarian]

One issue to consider is your states smog laws

Here in the People's Republic of Kalifornia many a 911 owner dread the biyearly smog testing. Owners spend a lot of effort to tweak their cars to get them to barely pass only to have to repeat the process in 24 months.

The idiots in Sacramento stopped the rolling smog exemption at 1975. Luckily my mid year is a '75

I miss my '83 cab but do not miss the smog charade.

[Tidybuoy]

The narrow body of my '74 has grown on me and I now prefer it as I think it has a very classic good look. The tires fill the wheel wells very well and when we have our local PCA road trips, I am always the fastest of the air cooled cars. I believe that may be due to the weight advantage.

If you can do some mods to the engine, you can really have a great car. My only issue that I ever had with my '74 was the CIS injection which had less refinements than the later CIS cars (CIS can be tuned to run well but at 40 years old, you have wear in the fuel distributor that can be problematic). I have since replaced my CIS with PMO electronic injection and I can guarantee you that no stock SC or Carrera can come close. And, I don't have to smog my car. With the PMO and Electromotive engine management, I probably would score better on a smog test than any CIS car and I get much better mileage too.

[Eli W]

Tidybuoy, That is one beautiful engine.

My Twin plug still has the CIS injection system running on it. And I have zero issues with it, if you get into the go pedal the thing just takes off especially over 3k rpms but my CIS is one the later generations.

I like the look of the bright work on my car and the narrow body, and the little things like the pop out rear windows. You can see the clear progression from the early cars. And the car just feels feather light on the road. If I want to sharpen my turn radius I don't turn the steering wheel I push the car through the corner by accelerating.

I think mid years are the perfect Porsches to hotrod. The later carreras are going for big bucks and SCs are not far behind especially ones under 100k miles. You can get into a mid years at a lower price point and you don't have to worry as much about taking away value from the car by making it what you want, whether that is from an esthetics point of view or from a power point of view.

[Otter74]

Good feedback - thanks, y'all.

Tidybuoy, that's a beautiful engine.

RNajarian, I live in Chicago and fortunately emissions are not an issue for me. I do not like to drive a car that is a gross polluter, but the extent of emissions "testing" here is that OBD2 cars get a scanner plugged into the port to check for stored codes. Basically, if you don't have a CEL you "pass." Everything before 1996 or so gets ignored.

[Otter74]

I might as well piggyback another question on here: I know that level of care and correct maintenance is at least as important as mileage - I'm better off with a scrupulously maintained car with 150k miles than a car with half that but no records or indifferent maintenance. But once I get to, say, 200k miles, does mileage really become something to start factoring into my value equation of whether a car is worth it given my needs? I know SC engines are durable, but still, 200k is a lot. I'd be driving around 5k miles a year - that's not a lot, but I'd rather not have to think about rebuilds for a long time. There are a couple of cars I've been looking at that have been very well-maintained (and one got a top-end rebuild) but have 175k - 225k on them and I'm not sure whether it should give me pause or not. The SR20DE in one of my cars is a great engine too, but it's getting rod bearings at 225k - nothing lasts forever!

[javadog]

It's a question that has no easy answer. Some things are mileage dependent. Some things are a question of time. I'd decide what my end goal was, in the sense that you need to ask yourself how "new" do you want it to feel and then start analyzing each car you run across.

For example, if you want a car that drives like it left the factory yesterday, you'll want fresh suspension bushings. Stock ones, not aftermarket. There are several ways to replace the rubber bushings and some are more like factory bushings than others. Cost is the big factor here. So, if that's a box you want checked, some cars may have fresh bushings, most won't. You need to get aquainted with the ins and outs of that job, to be able to evaluate cars you look at. Then, you have to be that knowledgeable about the other 50 things you should be thinking about.

In this market, low mileage counts for a lot if you have an original car in good condition. If it's far from original, mileage is less of a factor. If I were buying a car in this market, I'd be looking for unmodified cars with a good history.

You can break things down other ways. A 74 or 75 will have a better engine than a 76 or 77. A 49-state car will be better than a California-emission car. A 78 or 79 SC is preferable in my book to the 80-on cars.

A 74 will have a lower final drive than later cars. Cars before 77 will not have power brakes. Rust is less of an issue after 76 but can still be a problem on cars that got daily driver use. You're more likely to find a non-sunroof or non-A/C car in the earlier years. The cars got a little fatter every year. You might find a late SC is a hundred pounds+ heavier than an early midyear.

Etc., etc.

JR

[jdbunda]

A minor issue between the middies and SC is tire availability. SC flares allow running wider and more modern wheels and rubber. This may seem a minor issue until you start looking at the tire choices that will both fit and look good in the early fenders. If you just want a car to tootle around in, not such a big deal, but if spirited and/or track driving is on the menu, choices are very limited.

[Otter74]

Originally Posted by jdbunda

A minor issue between the middies and SC is tire availability. SC flares allow running wider and more modern wheels and rubber. This may seem a minor issue until you start looking at the tire choices that will both fit and look good in the early fenders. If you just want a car to tootle around in, not such a big deal, but if spirited and/or track driving is on the menu, choices are very limited.

Good point. I have two cars that use 185/60-14 tires and it is pretty hard to find good choices any more in that size, too. At least with 15s on a 911 you seem to have decent choices in "+0" sizes.

As for driving in Chicago, this isn't a car I'm going to drive in the winter unless I have to (save perhaps for a trip to Atlanta for Christmas) - I plan to drive my SE-R as my winter/etc. car once I finish pulling the engine, doing the rod bearings, and doing 8 other things.

[golfbuddy]

Had a 77 911S and now an 82 SC. Took 2 years to find the SC as a good air cooled 911is hard to find and the prices keep going up. My search was longer than I wanted because I wanted a certain color, etc. The color I got was not my first choice but really like it now. More important was the car was in great shape with low milage. Still, I liked the look of the 77 and would loved to put a 3.2 in it. Perfect combo for me would be a 74 (no smog here in CA) and a 3.2 engine.

[Bergo]

I've got a '74 911S, it's been a good car for me. The whole galvanized bodies on the later cars isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be in the whole middie vs. SC discussion. nobody is going to shy away from a long hood because they aren't galvanized.

[Josh D]

Bottom line is, irregardless of the year or mileage, buy the best condition car you can afford.

Then, it's down to one of the two means of keeping the car on the road and enjoyable:

1. Have money in the bank and a good mechanic to maintain and repair the car and accept the Porsche tax.

or

2. Have a place, willingness and desire to do the maintenance and repairs yourself at a much lower cost. This will require some additional investment in tools and such, but the knowledge community you have access to is free!

I've owned my car for 4 years this month. It had 76K miles on it when I bought it and it's been a daily driver. It came with a folder of reciepts dating back to the early '90s. It now has 126K miles on it, so I've put 50K on it in 4 years. I've had the engine out twice and the gearbox apart once. I've spent about $8K in that time on maintenance, repairs, and upgrades. All parts, no labor. It's all worth it. I love my car and never plan to sale. I'll heirloom it and pass it on to an eventual grandkid or something.

[74-911]

Originally Posted by Josh D

Bottom line is, irregardless of the year or mileage, buy the best condition car you can afford........

Then, it's down to one of the two means of keeping the car on the road and enjoyable:

1. Have money in the bank and a good mechanic to maintain and repair the car and accept the Porsche tax.

or

2. Have a place, willingness and desire to do the maintenance and repairs yourself at a much lower cost. This will require some additional investment in tools and such, but the knowledge community you have access to is free!

This ^^^^^is excellent advice. As # 1. doesn't really apply to me I have opted for door # 2... there is a lot of satisfaction (and frustration at times) but DIY is the way to go if you are up to it.

Originally Posted by Bergo

I've got a '74 911S, it's been a good car for me. The whole galvanized bodies on the later cars isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be in the whole middie vs. SC discussion. nobody is going to shy away from a long hood because they aren't galvanized.

I've had my '74 for 31 years and also think it is a great car. Plenty of threads about rust on SC's, Carreras, etc. and Porsche started galvanizing the lower body panels in the early 70's. The important thing to me is to avoid a car that already has rust (unless you are willing to deal with it) and rust isn't necessarily obvious.
and as Bergo stated, I've never heard anyone say they wouldn't buy a long hood because they aren't galvanized.....

[Otter74]

Originally Posted by Josh D

Bottom line is, irregardless of the year or mileage, buy the best condition car you can afford.

Then, it's down to one of the two means of keeping the car on the road and enjoyable:

1. Have money in the bank and a good mechanic to maintain and repair the car and accept the Porsche tax.

or

2. Have a place, willingness and desire to do the maintenance and repairs yourself at a much lower cost. This will require some additional investment in tools and such, but the knowledge community you have access to is free!

I've owned my car for 4 years this month. It had 76K miles on it when I bought it and it's been a daily driver. It came with a folder of reciepts dating back to the early '90s. It now has 126K miles on it, so I've put 50K on it in 4 years. I've had the engine out twice and the gearbox apart once. I've spent about $8K in that time on maintenance, repairs, and upgrades. All parts, no labor. It's all worth it. I love my car and never plan to sale. I'll heirloom it and pass it on to an eventual grandkid or something.

I've done most of my own maintenance on my cars for about 20 years, so I'm solidly in #2. If I don't have the equipment to do it right (e.g. my Honda just got a new A/C condenser and drier and recharge) I'll take it to a shop, but if I can do it myself and do it right, I will. I enjoy doing my own work and it's saved me piles of money over the years! I'm not in a hurry, so I can afford to be patient to find, basically, the best mechanically reliable car I can find for $25k or so.