85 Carrera 3.2 Oil Smoke - Can it be anything other than guides or overfull?

[stewartjp]

Hi Guys,

I picked up a new to me Carrera 3.2 Coupe Yesterday. The car has done 103,000 Miles.

It is smoking quite a bit at start up but also sometimes sitting at the lights when it is warm though it doesn't seem to be doing it while driving or when you back off down hills etc.

I am quite confident it is not overfull with oil - it is halfway between the marks on the stick with the engine running.

Is there anything else I should check?

Can it be anything other than value guides / valve guide seals? Has anyone had a professional replace the value guide seals with the engine in the car, any idea on price?

Cheers & Thanks

Stewart

[ganun]

Pull the spark plugs and take a look at them, you'll know if it's just one cylinder that's the problem or more than one. Post pics.

[Drisump]

Do you have any idea of consumption? The factory says a quart every 600 miles is within spec. My 3.2 with very similar mileage to yours does over 2000 miles to a quart and by your description, it is rather uncommon for 3.2's to be so obviously burning oil even when burning at maximum spec. Cheers

[Flat6pac]

103 K. Surely needs guides, maybe streaked alucil
Personal experience on multiple engines
Check out my post " check it out before it goes into the car" as a 3.2 back in April I think.
Bruce

[Drisump]

Am I misunderstanding you? @ 103k it "surely" needs guides? I've known a number of 3.2's that have gone <200k miles before the heads have had to come off.....one over 300k miles.

[stewartjp]

Thanks guys.

I am wondering / hoping maybe its just guide seals....

Bruce I will search out your post in the morning.

Thanks again.

Stewart

[porschenut]

Worn or broken oil sealing rings could be the culprit as well. Whether it's that or worn valve guides, excess oil burning means you're likely looking at a top end rebuild soon.

[Fixer]

Originally Posted by Flat6pac

103 K. Surely needs guides, maybe streaked alucil
Personal experience on multiple engines
Check out my post " check it out before it goes into the car" as a 3.2 back in April I think.
Bruce

+1, Your problem is common and likely due to worn guides. This is a very common issue with many 3.2s. Some guides go even sooner and some don't.

My '86 3.2's guides were good at 160K miles. I would get a little smoke on start up after sitting a week but that's all. But it does and always did consume its fair share of oil.

[stewartjp]

Thanks Guys,

The compression and leak down numbers are fine so I doubt it rings (unless it is just the oil ring as stated above) hopefully not!

I will buy a spark plug spanner today and get the plugs out tonight for a look.

Cheers

Stewart

[ClickClickBoom]

No worries,
On cars that sit for a long time, or are driven softly can get less than optimal sealing on the valve stem seals. Drive it like its stolen, run it up to redline, get it good and hot and keep doing it, by the time you are ready to ship it home it will be smoke free. Do a couple of oil changes with Brad Penn, the aggressive detergent additives will clean your valve stems and internal components. 2 thousand intervals will do the trick. My '84 3.2 with 97,000 miles went 4 thousand miles on the last oil change and went from 2/3rds on the oil guage to 1/3rd without any addition of oil. These cars like to be driven. Dry sump engines will slowly allow oil to seep back into the sump through the oil pump, during non use times, depending on how full the oil tank is and parking position(off level), will possibly determine oil smoke at start up. There are a multitude of choices for oil changes at great shops along your route, call and make sure they have a case on Brad Penn 20-50 and a filter, do it in LA, then Seattle then once again in LA before the shipment home.
These engines are tough, stop worrying and have fun. I bought my car after looking at it for 10 minutes, no PPI, comp check or anything other than a rust check. Great car, now have fun!
P.S. It runs like a pissed off Visigoth!

[Fixer]

Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom

No worries,
On cars that sit for a long time, or are driven softly can get less than optimal sealing on the valve stem seals. Drive it like its stolen, run it up to redline, get it good and hot and keep doing it, by the time you are ready to ship it home it will be smoke free. Do a couple of oil changes with Brad Penn, the aggressive detergent additives will clean you valve stems and internal components. 2 thousand intervals will do the trick. My '84 3.2 with 97,000 miles went 4 thousand miles on the last oil change and went from 2/3rds on the oil guage to 1/3rd without any addition of oil. These cars like to be driven.

I agree they like to be driven.

I was going to also state this. My 3.2 never runs better the next day than after a nice long 2 hour or more cruise down the highway. You will notice a difference if you take it for a nice long drive.

I'll lose man points for this.. but I never drive mine like it stolen or redline it much anymore, (in the beginning i did) 5800 rpms or so is enough for me

[Hoss911sc]

have you checked for oil leaks? oil dripping on the heat exchangers can put out noticeable smoke when stopped at a light, especially when leaking from the triangle of death (engine thermostat & idiot light sender). worth a look..

[DRACO A5OG]

Originally Posted by stewartjp

I am quite confident it is not overfull with oil - it is halfway between the marks on the stick with the engine running.

Of course when the engine is hot or at a minimum operating temps 194F, right?

Assuming you measured oil levels properly, try this, after a good long drive and up to proper temps.

When you are ready to park her over night. Let her sit and idle for 1-2 minutes then shut down.

Next morning observe the exhaust.

[DRACO A5OG]

Heck If you still in L.A. I will meet you and take a look

PMed you.

Jim

[stewartjp]

Thanks Guys, I will give the brad penn a go. The car has been sitting for 6 months in my ownership . I beleive the previous owner did 3000 miles of commuting across LA and it had been sitting before that.

Thanks heaps for the offer Jim but we are out and about already.

Also I checked and there is no oil leaks.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom

On cars that sit for a long time, or are driven softly can get less than optimal sealing on the valve stem seals.

Drive it like its stolen, run it up to redline, get it good and hot and keep doing it, by the time you are ready to ship it home it will be smoke free.

Is there any actual science or evidence to back up the claims above?

Why is a car that is driven softly going to have valve guide issues?
What is the physics and science behind this?

Why would driving it to redline remedy this?
What exactly is being changed/fixed in the engine if the owner drives this way?

[A horse with no name]

Originally Posted by stewartjp

Hi Guys,

I picked up a new to me Carrera 3.2 Coupe Yesterday. The car has done 103,000 Miles.

It is smoking quite a bit at start up but also sometimes sitting at the lights when it is warm though it doesn't seem to be doing it while driving or when you back off down hills etc.

I am quite confident it is not overfull with oil - it is halfway between the marks on the stick with the engine running.

Is there anything else I should check?

Can it be anything other than value guides / valve guide seals? Has anyone had a professional replace the value guide seals with the engine in the car, any idea on price?

Cheers & Thanks

Stewart

Hi, with the symptoms that you are experiencing, may be case of worn valve seals. Possibly valve guides, but with your mileage, I would tend to still think that it is the seals. Whether it is the seals or guides, in the long run, it really doesn't matter, as the engine would then have to be taken a part. At this time is when you'll need to rebuilt the top end=$$$$$$
Overnight you have some oil weeping into the cylinder(s). When you come to a stop on compression, it is actually sucking the oil past the seals. You will notice it the most after stopping at the bottom of a hill. You will get quite a 'cloud' of smoke if it happens be a long hill or when letting it idle too long. When coming off of a long hill, you have a longer time period of compression, hence the big 'cloud' of smoke. Try avoiding this by not gearing down; just leave it in 5th before you stop. Unfortunately it's not an easy fix. If you want to have it repaired, that's when you will want to be doing the top end =$$$$$$

To begin, keep an accurate amount of oil that it is using, including keeping notes of the mileage every time that you have to add oil. When it gets to be ridiculous amounts of adding oil then it is a 'must do' top end job.
As in the song, "Sad Movies Make Me Cry"

[A horse with no name]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Is there any actual science or evidence to back up the claims above?

Why is a car that is driven softly going to have valve guide issues?
What is the physics and science behind this?

Why would driving it to red-line remedy this?
What exactly is being changed/fixed in the engine if the owner drives this way?

Not meaning to be offend anyone, but to be continually red lining it is just wearing the engine out faster. That's the reason track cars, or say Dragsters, are always rebuilding their engines.

When a car is brand new they suggest that you should run it up then back it off so as to get the rings to set correctly. Driving a a car at low RPM's most of the time will indeed carbon up any engine. As the majority of people know that this type of driving is far from being good -> Bad.

I would tend to say that I drive our car 'softly' but every so often I will run it up close to the red-line. When taking it for a drive I may run it up to 4000 RPM which is 90 mph 70 miles /65 mph- 3000 RPM - 60 mph at 2500. On shifts around town; 1,and 2 gear's up to 3500. The car now has 75,000 miles on it, and it has never leaked any oil. Odd but true and I even use 15-50 Mobil synthetic. As the majority of people know, synthetic will leak much more easier than Dino oil. I store it for 6 months of the year and I only make one cold start and that's when I'm taking it out of storage. I do though pull the coil wire and crank it over so that the oil pump gets some oil throughout the engine. BTW, even after six months of being parked every year, it genuinely has never had any smoke come out of it when restarting it.

I do though truly over-service it.

[stewartjp]

Thanks guys. More piece of infomation, not sure if it makes any difference but may as well be up here. I just spent 25 minutes idling queuing for parking at the Getty centre. The strange thing is there will be no smoke for often 3 minutes and up to 5 then there will be quite a large amount briefly then it will go away again. Throttle position seems to make no difference.

Thanks again

Stewart

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Is there any actual science or evidence to back up the claims above?

Why is a car that is driven softly going to have valve guide issues?
What is the physics and science behind this?

Why would driving it to redline remedy this?
What exactly is being changed/fixed in the engine if the owner drives this way?

No science, just personal experience. My '74 was owned by a UAL flight attendant, she drove it to work and back, gently as per husband. When I took the "thermal destroyers" off to install some 3 into 1 headers, the ports and exposed stems were caked with oil and coke residue. I drove it for 6 months like it was stolen and when I removed the 3 into 1s to install the used SSIs, every port was clean and dry as a bone, the oil consumption had stabilized to using almost none between changes. My personal theory is the seals get hard from sitting and the oil drains out of the guide which accelerates the guide wear and allows even more oil past the seal/guide. Enter driving it like its stolen, lots of heat into the heads, which allows the oil additives to work at cleaning the guide stem area and softens the seals so they can be more effective. Been an A&P aircraft mechanic for 25 years, hammer mechanic for longer. Driving at the redline, the swept area of the valve stem gets wiped to the extreme ends of its travel, which allows the gunk to be cleaned off.
Just my personal experience with 2 different Porsche motors that were "gently" driven.
No science, just anecdotal experience, and caveman logic.