Beware beru!!!!

[Billytex1]

I installed a brand new set of Beru braided ignition wires in my 1986 930 just over 2 years ago - February 23 2014. They have right now 17,000 miles on them. Not long ago, I started experiencing ignition loss/missing, and couldn't locate the issue - cap & rotor in nearly new condition, wires all tight at both ends, check all the standard stuff - including connections to the ignition box (replacement MSD 6A), looked at signal from distributor reluctor on oscilloscope - clean trigger signal. Looked at low voltage input to coil on scope - clean, crisp - no distortions, dropped peaks - put CT around coil wire to observe coil discharge - clean, crisp, all peaks present, no missing.

So - let's pull plugs & wires. Started to pull plug wires out of cap to check connections at cap towers - MAJOR issues - the Beru wires had inside the cap end a plastic insert, with a ridged pin in a socket that the wire was stabbed onto to make contact - and the cap end of this piece had at its terminus a copper strip, folded up both sides, with a brass pin in the bottom (loose mind you) supposedly making contact. The problem extracting the wires from the cap - the copper strip had folded outward, making it like little 'wings' that had spread inside the towers - and with a slight ridge inside the tower where the socket stops and the plastic of the cap continues, these little 'wings' made a perfect locking mechanism - in every case, it took extreme force to remove the wire/boot assembly from the distributor cap - and in a couple of cases, one of the wings broke off because it was snagged as described - see photo.

Now to the spark plug end - as I removed plug wires, the plastic extenders that go into the plug wells came apart instead of the entire assembly coming off the top of the plug!! This left part of the plastic tower still firmly gripped onto the plug - and due to the diameter of the plastic terminal end a spark plug socket won't go over it!!

On examination of the plug wire extenders that did come out of the engine intact, they all displayed the same problem - and an explanation of why they failed - every one had a significant longitudinal crack running up the terminus end to where the portion of the plastic that goes over the plug reduces down in size. Further, on every one, there was a radial crack running nearly completely around the diameter of the extender right above where the boot over the plug stops. See attached photos - you can see light through the cracks!!!!!

Personal opinion - any product that cannot stand less than 20k miles of casual street driving obviously has some SERIOUS design and/or manufacturing issues, and should be AVOIDED LIKE THE PLAGUE!!!! (my car does not see track usage, nor 'spirited' driving styles due to its age - it's enjoyed as a fun handling and great looking vintage vehicle) Short of dropping the engine now, I see no way to retrieve the boot ends that are still very firmly snapped onto the ends of the plugs still in the head - I managed to locate a plug boot puller (neat tool) but its 'tongs' that reach in & around the boot just aren't long enough to reach even to the broken end, much less fully down & around the boot end furthest inside - and with engine in, there's poor clearance at best between the valve cover aperture the plug wires go into and the immediately adjacent frame steel.

Any ideas would be GREATLY appreciated - in the meantime, I can ASSURE you Beru wires are on my 'hell no' list for replacement plug wires!!

[john walker's workshop]

...msd...

[Billytex1]

How so??? The Porsche stock CD ignition produces more voltage (according to specs) in the 930 than the MSD does with a Bosch blue coil - which is the coil it's triggering - the stock 930 coil was removed specifically to get a coil that better matched the trigger voltage characteristics of the MSD.

[Cherry Bomb]

MSD ^^ x2

One ignition I'll avoid "like the plague"! ;-)

[Billytex1]

Also - the MSD has been in the car since shortly after I bought the car - 2001 - and there have been 2 other sets of plug wires on this car prior to the Beru's - and they (other wires) showed no similar breakdown of the plastic extensions that reach through the valve cover to the plugs - when they came out and got replaced, they came out just fine - and all in one piece. One of the prior sets was external braided, one wasn't, don't remember the maker - believe one was Nology (the braided set), the other was the wires on the car when I bought it, and they were quite new still - but not Beru's I looked at them when they came out just don't recall the name - clear silicone blue jacket, might have been NGK's. I'm going back in with Magnecor 8.5's - once I get this mess straightened out.

[Billytex1]

Why??? I've used MSD's since my first one in a 1976 Datsun 280Z - both street cars and full track cars - never had issues, with correct plugs and properly matched coil they've delivered flawless performance and have been literally bulletproof - I have yet to have an MSD unit fail on me - but components need to be properly matched - and nothing in the tech data for these wires gave me any indication they had any spec conflicts with the performance characteristics of the MSD.

[sc_rufctr]

The standard Beru wires have resistors built in at each end. (Cap & Plug ends)

Also... The standard rotor has a resistor built in.

MSD ignition does not like resistors.

[Billytex1]

Understand your argument - but I just checked - MSD instructions specifically state that full non-resistor circuit paths are not to be used - I just dug my instructions out of my files - as I said earlier, this MSD has been in constant use since 2001 in this vehicle with 2 prior sets of wires, and same type of Bosch stock cap & non- rpm limited rotor, as well as several prior applications on other vehicles with similar setups - no problems whatsoever - plus if the resistors were a problem I'd expect to see breakdown or burnout and issues at the resistor inserts in the boots (no issues) or the rotor where the resistor is sealed into the groove (no signs of breakdown) or at the resistor in the head of the boot at the plug - that's fine. The plastic stem extension - compared to other wires I've got around here - is very poor, soft plastic - no structural integrity at all.

This is a structural materials failure - either the plastic used couldn't stand the heat inside the valve cover (on an air cooled turbo engine I can see that) and went through thermal breakdown, or expansion/contraction due to the heat over time caused the plastic to fail - and it should be further noted that the cracks and structural fails are right on mold marks - making me even more suspicious of either bad material or bad casting/manufacturing.

[Jonny H]

Originally Posted by Billytex1

How so??? The Porsche stock CD ignition produces more voltage (according to specs) in the 930 than the MSD does with a Bosch blue coil - which is the coil it's triggering - the stock 930 coil was removed specifically to get a coil that better matched the trigger voltage characteristics of the MSD.

The Bosch CDI unit produces ~400V at idle, tailing off to around ~250V at high RPM.

MSD promote their system as 500V and higher. What is the coil part number? If it is 100:1 ratio that's 50kV on your leads. The lead ends also appear to have split exactly where the resistor is in the assembly.

IMO, 500V is a bit extreme. Sometimes bigger isn't necessarily better.

[Cherry Bomb]

I ran MSD for years on my hi-po Aircooled VW's and on many occasions wasted countless hours chasing missfires and other annoying tuning issues. I always seemed to get it sorted....for a while. Never thought the big name brand ignition was an issue until I took a step back a fews decade to bone stock 1950's Bosch technology.

I went back to a Bosch .010 distributor, Blue coil, stock Bosch wires and stock plug gap. My 2332cc felt like it gained 20hp from off idle to 7500redline and it never felt so smooth!

MSD quality has been falling and the longevity of older systems seems to come to an end, abruptly. You may have experienced a spike in the system or a coil running wild. I had a coil overheat and my cap/rotor/wire leads did not look happy.

I am not blaming your MSD without regard to other components as well, but there's a good chance your MSD caused the Beru's to take an early vacation. Too many testimonials with negative reports.

My .02$

[zedsn]

I am running an older 6A MSD box in my 911 with no problems. I am running NOLOGY wires which are said to not work well with a MSD box but they are working fine for me and have been told to go with Magnecor brand when running a MSD box.

[Billytex1]

interesting possibility - but I'd still question why previous wire sets did just fine - this is an older MSD, not the newer digital ones so don't know right off the top of my head what its capacitor charge voltage or coil trigger voltages are - have to try to hunt down the data sheet for my unit and see what it says - as well as the coil winding ratio - thanks for your informative reply!

[Billytex1]

Thanks to everyone for their time in responding - but before we all condemn the ignition box, look elsewhere on just this forum - there's one other post on here that directly references this issue on a car with standard ignition back in 2009 - and all the replies there document and point to issues with the Beru plug end terminals - a problem specific to the braided wires as the conductor in the wire itself is not helical wound, but straight heavy gauge stranded copper, depending completely on the terminal resistor - and the plastic not being able to stand the heat generated by the resistor. There's another post from a guy who replaced his Bosch wires with the Beru braided wires, got significant arcing and misfire problems, went back to the Bosch wires, and car ran fine.

I would be more willing to consider the MSD if there was other evidence of it creating more energy than the system should be handling - breaking the coil down, signs of excessive burning of the studs in the distributor cap or on the rotor face, signs of failure in the rotor resistor, burned plug electrodes (vehicle doesn't get run on high boost hardly at all, so the spark for the majority of its time is only having to cross the plug gap in low compression environments, and excessive voltage should show at the plug electrodes).

As stated before, this MSD has been in this car for a long time and performed well without issues - and generated clearly noticeable performance increases above the factory unit. Scoping the engine a while back with plugs out didn't show any signs of arcing to the piston tops, and plugs repeatedly show normal wear when they're removed - and give normal life expectancy.

I would agree with everyone that every component needs to be checked and evaluated - but at this point in time, I'm still having difficulty condemning the MSD outright - it's prior history in this car in specific, and my history with them in general, is just too overwhelming on the good side to discount out of hand.

Thanks again - all of your time in responding is appreciated greatly!!