Identifying Titanium

[JWest]

If they are magnetic then they are steel!

[Jim Garfield]

Curt, where did you get that???

[Green 912]

There are ways to tell Ti from other metals.

First is the grinder; Ti makes nice bright white sparks but grinding on a finished part is a study in making stress risers. If you want to do it think of the right place to do so. A dremel cutoff wheel spun flat on the end of a stud will have little to no effect on the design strength of the fastener.

Ti is not magnetic.

Ti is extremely corrosion resistant. Most parts on an old motor show some signs of oxidation. I have a Ti dive knife and other than some scratches from the acumulated years of one wreck divers maniacal brass hounding abuse it looks new and is still scary sharp.

Ti has a bad galling habit. I have a Ti wedding band. It is light, strong and scratches everything! Glass, Granite, dinner plates, coffee cups and more. It will leave a nice silver trace on white glazed ceramic and stainless steel will not. So just drag the item in question across the toilet bowl rim if it leaves a silver trace you likely have Ti and a p!ssed wife. (600 wet paper will take the lines out but I recomend that you just get a 4X4 bathroom tile to test with) When it scratches glass it also leaves a dull gray to silver trace in the scratch. I wiped some condensation off the inside of my Porsche and left 3 deep scratches in the windshield.

It is slow to move heat. Play a torch on the outside end of a stud and feel how fast the heat moves to the other then do the same with a known steel item of approximately the same size and compare. Very unscientific but the thermal differences are large enough to tell.

Bright white sparks Y/N .Magnetic Y/N Corrosion Y/N Scratch glass Y/N Leave silver trace Y/N
Y.N.N.Y.Y. Good chance it is Ti and you didn’t have to get the spectrograph out of the attic.

(Edit)
Just saw your post on the studs and Mr. Magnets answer so.... "nevermind"

[Pors911E]

Originally posted by Rouxzy
As far and heat goes titanium is used for the tubes in steam generaters in nuclear power plants. Needless to say it gets pretty hot and for long periods of time, like about 14 to 18 months at a time, so I can't see ti losing strength properties due to heat.

Good, I found an expert, I'd be interested to learn from you what ASME/TEMA specification these "steam generators" are built to and what the operating temperature is. Thermal tranfer, pressure drop... In order to know the required yield of the tubing, you must obviously know what kind of expansion joint they use on the shell side to compensate for the differing thermal expansion rates (as the owner of a 77, you ought to know something about that). Bellows? Flanged and flued? Are the tubesheet joints rolled only? welded? both? Do they have cross baffle supports? Maybe they don't have to because of the ultra strong Titanium used in construction? Channel stiffeners? My apologies to the board, I am ignorant, you are enlightened... enlighten me.

[724doorE]

Steam Generators, I used to know, but all I remember now is that I signed a sheet of paper that said i know nothing!

As far as steam generators go, you might want to recognize that the tubes are submerged at all times, if not bad things happen. Being submerged they are only subjected to the highest temp of the "fluid" on either side. For a 600# steam plant, that might be somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 F. Plants and specs vary though. Thats about all I should say.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by 724doorE
[ Thats about all I should say.

How about this.. when they were building Shoreham on Long Island. some friends had very unique SS exhaust sys.. What kind of stainless does a nuke plant use? .......Ron

[724doorE]

Ron, there is probably not one good answer to that one. Nuc plants probably use neat stuff like inconel, monel, and nickel based alloys for a number of reasons. While chemistry in a conventional plant is important, it is doublly important in a nuc plant as are corrosion products. Not only is there the idea of corrosion, but there is stress invoved as well due to the pressure of the fluids on the tubes. Add to that thermal cycles due to operations, and it all leads to stress corrosion cracking. It also leads to crud buildup and that crud can become radioactive. The fluid can be cleaned by use of resen ion exchangers, but the crud particles can't. So the less crud all the better. That means minimize corrosion, which means use the best materials for the most likely corrosion and strength considerations, and of course the need for strict chemistry to minimize corrosive conditions. Oh and remember one thing, Civilian nuc plants are driven by the almighty dollar, TMI didn't happen because nuc power is bad, it happend becuase repetitive safety measures were over-ridden and not understood buy certain operators at the wrong time. Bad, bad luck. Navy plants simply can not afford to sustain a reactor casualty, it wouldn't be an acceptable risk politically. Systems are triple redundant, procedures are strictly adhered to, and cost is not as much an object. Never say never, but highly less likely is a safe bet.

Oh and before someone makes some comment about R-waste....what about the many strip mines that litter our world that will never be fixed due to coal excavation. Come on, it takes at least two 125 car coal trains aday to keep a conventionl plant up and each one of those cars carries 100 tons or more of coal! A reactor runs off of one fuel load for years. I'd gladly trade miles of hole in the earth from coal digging for a few cans of waste products that can be properly dealt with. The problem is people belive that they aren't true or not.. my .02

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by 724doorE
Ron, there is probably not one good answer to that one. Nuc plants probably use neat stuff like inconel, monel, and nickel based alloys for a number of reasons.
TMI didn't happen because nuc power is bad, it happend becuase repetitive safety measures were over-ridden and not understood buy certain operators at the wrong time. Bad, bad luck.
what about the many strip mines that litter our world that will never be fixed due to coal excavation.

Dennis...good reply, thanks.. and I knew a little about what's happening w/power plants.. worked as a fireman/boiler for LA Dept. Water&Power many moons ago.. one of the plants had pressures so high that the text books called it "stuff". think it was 1,800 psi/1000deg or 1,000psi/1,800deg ..still got a op training manual around somewhere.......Ron

[724doorE]

Ron,

thanks

one benifit of a nuc plant is that power availability is great enough that a lower pressure and temp can be run to get the same or greater steam flow than a fossil plant. ie. 600# and 500 degree F. This in itself leads to lesser potential hazards from the beast itself! Oh, those numbers are for the secondary or steam side of the plant the reactor numbers for temp and pressure are different and I'll leave those alone. Its fun to discuss, but even though any "good" engineer should be able to figure it out, some info should and will stay under the table.

Have a great thanksgiving!!

[Rouxzy]

Pors911E, I'm not what you call an expert in the field but I know what questions to ask and who to ask. The tubes in the steam generators are actually nickel and titanium based, the temps on the intake are about 620 degrees where the output is about 580. The generators at this plant ran about 10 years until this last refueling where there were a few leaks which were fixed. From what I understand one side is radioactive the other isn't so it is important to keep separat so not to contanimate the turbine.

724doorE, there isn't any crud in there because the lines are cotinuously cleaned with a chemical that if spilled on the floor will suck the oxygen out of the air and down you go, that is the reason for a hazwaste dept. on site. Expense is not spared since the plant (which is the last built in the U.S. was suppose to cost about 900 million for two plants. During construction 3 Mile Island happened. The plant final cost was about 7 billion and only one was built. As far as backups, the backup's backups have backups. As far a safe against terroism. A refueling jet filled with fuel can crash into containment and it will not reach the reactor or fuel storage. This plant is quite impressive.

As far a fuel for theses plants go. The navy uses plutonium which is 99% pure, power plants use about 3% pure, thats why an aircraft carrier can go 20 years where a merchant plant has to refuel(some of its fuel) every 14 months. I could go on but this isn't why we are hear. Back to riding Pcars.
Tom

[724doorE]

Rouxzy,

A carrier averages about 12-17% max power for its life and a power plant averages what 95% and up for its life A typical navy core might last 10000 EFPH effective full power hours, not that I remember or anything. Oh and they don't use plutonium in any of their plants, but they do use a different isotope of urainium than the civilian plants use.

Crud is defined as any non disolved solid in the fluid system. There is a spec for it as I'm sure NR or NRC would be glad to point out... It is something you don't want, not something you have a bunch of....I don't buy your explanation for no crude...
So your experience is with civi plants and mine is with navy plants, we both know they are not the same aside from the facts that they are both nuc plants.

By the way, my comments weren't meant to bash nuc plants, quite the contrary, I wholey support their use.

Happy thanksgiving

[Rouxzy]

I will agree with you there they are two different type of animals. There are NRC officers on site 24/7. They make sure that the plant is run the way it is suppose to run without dictating how to do it. As far as crud goes, the more that is kept out of the system the less $ is spent on repairs. Like you said the almighty dollar dictates but the NRC makes sure it is done safely.
That being said my OPI is we need more nukes.

[Emission]

Originally posted by Green 912
I have a Ti wedding band. It is light, strong and scratches everything! Glass, Granite, dinner plates, coffee cups and more. It will leave a nice silver trace on white glazed ceramic and stainless steel will not. So just drag the item in question across the toilet bowl rim if it leaves a silver trace you likely have Ti and a p!ssed wife. (600 wet paper will take the lines out but I recomend that you just get a 4X4 bathroom tile to test with)

I have a Ti watch (Fossil) and it scratches the hell out of the sink if I wash may face while wearing it. My wife raises the roof. I think I may try the wet sandpaper trick to get the silver tracks off the sink. No amount of elbow grease will take them off!

Ti is a pretty amazing metal. My Ti watch weighs nearly nothing next to my stainless watch.