3.6 transplant. Centerforce or Sachs power kit?

[Moses]

I heard somewhere that the Centerline clutches were too "grabby". I heard that they were either ON or OFF with little play and made things difficult for street driving. Then I noticed on Bill Verberg's website that he was using a Centerline clutch. Further investigation showed a number of folks using a Centerline.

Steve Timmins at Instant-G strongly recommends a Sach's Power kit for its strength and driveability.

What does the 3.6 transplant community think? Any input is greatly appreciated.

[emcon5]

Dr. Steve is the Elvis of 3.6 transplants, if he strongly recommends Sachs, it would get my vote, even if the Centerforce didn't cost 2-3 times as much.

Tom
(who thinks a $1500 clutch must be made of some precious metal)

[Moses]

Yikes! $1500???? I hadn't even checked prices. However, if they are driveable and NEVER burn out...

[pbs911]

Moses, no personal experience here, but my research leads me to believe the Sach's Power kit is the best for a 3.6 conversion street car.

Now how about an update on the progress!!

[k9handler]

Harald should chime in here...I bet he can give a good answer.

[Moses]

A progress report? It would read like a dime novel, complete with intrigue, villains and even a pair of knights on white horses. When everything settles out I'll fill you in.

The project should be complete in about 2 weeks. Would have been done a month ago if I had known what kind of gauntlet I'd have to run to get this thing done.

I guess the bottom line is that I have faith that I have a good motor from a reliable source. Prefer to keep the ugly parts private.

[Kevin Stewart]

Moses you hit the nail on the head with that one, it really doesnt seem anyone has all the answers just bits pieces as you go, I am at a point now where I have to call Timmins and make an order to go, so at this time I am gonna clean up the motor paint the tin etc, I think that when i am done posting my project, everyone will get a pretty good idea of what to do, especialy if you post also or just chime in, I have a sachs clutch, friday I am taking it to the local rebuilder and asking him what he can do, if he feels he can replace the disc surface with something that will grab, ill have him rebuild it, one time i had a 442 that had 400 horse and kept burning up clutches, and this guy fixed it right up, Kevin

[Joe Bob]

I'm happy with the Sachs....I have used many different styles including kevlar discs, springless variety and others...an overall good feel and no slippage....

[Joeaksa]

Moses,

Tried to PM you but its disabled. Can you (or anyone else with a 3. 6) pls email me with some "do's and donts" pls? Do not want my car to be down for months...

thx,

Joe

joeaksa@yahoo.com

[Jack Olsen]

Here's what I would suggest prospective 3.6-swappers do:

1) Get Timmins' kit.

2) Understand that Timmins isn't Andial. He's just a guy, doing this more or less part time, who's pretty much pioneered this mod from the ground up. Think of him as an uncle who's pretty good with this stuff, and who's offered to help you out. If you find yourself getting angry or impatient, then consider what a shop like Andial or S-Car-Go would get for this kind of a job. Timmins will start to look like an angel.

3) Before you start, post exactly what you plan to do on this board, and let the guys who have already been there offer their experiences. Oil cooling and exhaust are the biggest gray areas in this swap -- where you can waste a lot of time and money needlessly (or, conversely, you can seriously underestimate what you're going to need to do and spend). If you go into this thinking you're going to get by with just a 28-row brass cooler, guys here can set you straight. No two swaps are ever exactly alike, but experience is your best insurance, going in.

4) Understand that any used engine carries huge risks with it. Some of us have been very lucky. Some haven't. The 3.6 swap is possibly the best value in 911 upgrades, but it also carries huge potential downsides. (Then again, so does a $10,000 engine rebuild.)

5) Don't start your project clock ticking until you've assembled every piece you're going to need. You're going to forget to order some things. Shipping delays and incorrect shipments are definitely going to happen. This is not as simple as changing a clutch. Every time it's done, some once-in-a-lifetime work has to get done.

These are only my opinions, of course. But I think so many guys have done this swap, now, that we're all getting a false sense of how quick and easy it can be. It's a great upgrade, but it's not a simple or a routine one.

[Randy Webb]

$10,000 for a rebuild?? Isn't that a _little_ high? For 10k you should be well on the way to getting a good hotrodding modification done to the engine + a regular rebuild.

[Kevin Stewart]

Guys, you dont know how right Jack is, I have run into snags every step, Im not a mechanic by trade but i play with race cars and all kinds of stuff so i believe i have the skills, I have bent and built rollcages etc, this is not really a tricky conversion, its just what step is next? i believe after this first one i could do one out one in, in a weekend, but not this time, as jack has said everyone has done it a little different as in exhaust etc, but i believe that with everyones help and this bbs we will have a step by step within a year with what works best, I will say the info that jack and bill have given has been more then kind, if you have a open wallet ship it to Timmins, or buy his crate package, I am ordering Timmins install kit this week, after talking and posting i believe i have a idea whats going on, As Jack said this is not a simple unbolt sc motor bolt up 3.6, there is a lot of work to get the car ready for the motor, I will be posting with as many pictures as i can so hang in there and print the post like i did and start preparing yourself, as far as saving parts, when it comes to most of the parts like flywheel, wiring, and other misc stuff in Timmins package you might as well just buy the package instead of wasting your time sourcing it, ill be posting in a couple days more, Kevin

[Jack Olsen]

$10,000 for a rebuild?? Isn't that a _little_ high?

$10,000 is a figure I pulled out of my backside. I think common wisdom holds that a complete rebuild of a 911 engine will run about $8,000. Maybe more if you go to a rebuilder with an impeccable reputation, like Jerry Woods or Andial. But the $10,000 figure is probably pretty close to what some guys end up shelling out when all the 'while you're in there' improvements are added in.

Frugal, patient, or mechanically-skilled guys can certainly do a rebuild for less.

[ischmitz]

Going against mainstream, I would like to say that there is no need to get a conversion kit. While it might be a convenient solution it certainly takes the fun part away. Also one has to put up with how one guy thought this conversion will work. As some smart people said earlier; there are a thousand roads to rome.

If you break it down the major items are oil cooling and exhaust questions like Jack said. For the oil cooling there are several ways to go depending on budget and intended use of the car: Carrera oil cooler, Mocal, nose mounted cooler, etc). The conversion kit does not take care of that at all.

For the exhaust again, one could go Carrera, 993 HE, B&B or headers. Again, nothing the basic kit adds here.

The rest is pretty much the flywheel, clutch, and how to hook up the electrical system, the oil system, and the throttle linkage. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Yep I forgot to mention the mods to the engine tin and the engine mount....

But then who am I still being in the process of making my conversion work. It'll be documented on my website though if I'll ever find the time to update it.

One point is the price. Let's be straight here. Just buying the engine gets you about half way there. So 10.000$ is where you start talking.

Ingo

[juan ruiz]

Guys what is the TOTAL COST TURN KEY (with the DR,Kits or done at home)of this type of conversion and how much HP will this deliver ?

[POVI]

Hi,

I just completed doing a 3.6 install in my 1970 911 coupe
here is a break down on what it cost me
some figures might be off , as its by memory ...

1990 3.6 engine 60k miles .. I personally pulled it from a wrecked 911 c2 (heard it run first ...$5500. good deal !
timmins kit $1300
modified dme chip $250
power stering block off plate $100
b+b exhaust and timmins mulffler setup $2500 ?
sacks clutch setup $450
911 c2 fuel pump $200
911 sc gas tank .( for more capacity )..pulled from parts car
modified oil lines to fit mocal and early oil tank $200


then had to replace petal assy and shifter and shift tube assy
for 915 trans .. luckily i have a 1980 parts 911 sc sitting here
to grab those parts

915 short shifter kit $100

then bought a 1986 low mileage 915 with limited slip and build in oil pump and oil cooler for $1850
and a set of axle assys to fit the trans and sc trailing arms $275

The 1970 car already had a mocal thermostat and good size front fender mounted oil cooler .. so i think im all set with that

SO the parts add up after a while .. a $100 there , another $200 there ... and so on ...

SO total cost for 3.6 and trans = aprox $13,000
but i also sold the existing motor and trans for around 3,000
so net cost was 10k

Take care

- Joe -

[motion]

Guys, I'm about a year away from my 3.6 install... It seems like this mod is getting more and more popular. What do you think about putting together a website, hosted by Pelican or elsewhere, with all the info required, and sourcing contact info, for the transplant? That way we can keep it updated as required and it can be a central place to cull info from for new transplants?

[Kevin Stewart]

Motion I am gonna post everything i do on the transplant, i will not be creating a web site so the info that i share you guys can do what ever with it, Kevin

[Kevin Stewart]

I have been noticing 964's here in the states as cheap as 15000, so i am wondering if people will be just buying these cars instead of doing a transplant, I was gonna buy a wrecked car but I didnt have the funds in time, i think i could have sold all the parts and had the motor almost free, so lets see what happens even with the price of the motors, I do believe the 993 motor will be next hot conversion, Kevin

[widebody911]

I have the Sachs Power Kit in mine. I had some slipping issues at first, which turned out to be a badly worn clutch cable. I replaced the cable, re-adjusted the clutch, and now I can break loose the 315/35's with V700's. If that doesn't test a clutch, I don't know what will...

Re the conversion kit:
Yes, you can do a conversion without it, and many have. What you're buying is a big box of parts at just over cost, modifications to the parts that need to be changed, a recipe to follow, and the experience of someone who's done this many times. Sure, you can do this stuff yourself, but unless you're very intimate with both the 3.6L engine and harness setup and whatever your car is, such that you know which pieces have to be changed, you're money ahead to buy the kit. Even more so if you're having a shop do the work, because you're going to be paying $XX/hr for them to poke and prod and experiment.

An observation of my own: people tend to underestimate their cooling requirements. I know I did. I strongly suggest you go big on the cooling up front, rather than nickling and diming later. A fan-assisted Carrera cooler is a must (I suggest the Elephant cooler) as well as either a spoiler-mounted cooler, or a cooler in the opposite fender. If you are willing to go before a grand jury and pledge never to live below the Canada/US border, and never track the car, then you could get away with just the Carrera cooler.

BTW, I have 8 RS air tubes left, and I'm not sure if I'm going to do another batch for a while.