purchase gone bad, what to do?

[Farrell]

Hi Guys,

I bought a set of PMO 46 carbs from an individual here this past may. I was told these carbs were essentially new and assured me there was nothing wrong with them.

Fast forward to end of June, i had everything on the car and couldn't get the car running right. I finally broke down and gave the car to an expert with Porsche carbs, John Truman.

John and i went back and forth for months and he was never able to get the carbs running correctly. After going back and forth with Richard from PMO as well, Richard told us there was an issue with the carb bodies and they needed to be replaced. This was after about $5500 in repairs trying to get the carbs running correctly, mind you i spent about $3k for the carbs. The final bill totaled around $11k

So, about a month ago I brought this up to seller, and he said he didn't know what to do about this situation, i agreed and said I'm open to working with you. Now at this point he just has been ignoring the situation.

I understand things can be tough but I'm not an unreasonable person, in fact i have had similar situations happen to me and I've refunded the money to the buyer no problem. I can come to reasonable agreements but ignoring the situation i think is childish.

i know this has happened over the past 6 months and i tried to bring this up as soon as i knew the carbs were to blame.

btw i JUST got my car back about a week ago. This cost serious money and time to figure out. Do i create a claim through paypal or try and work with the seller again or am i SOL?

Thanks for your advice folks.

TF

[javadog]

What, exactly, was wrong with the carb bodies?
Was was the final disposition of the carbs? Are yo using them now, were they repaired, were they replaced?
What was known of their prior use, as disclosed by the seller?

JR

[Nick Triesch]

I have gone around with Paypal on some Ebay issues. They seem to go along with the buyer so I would make a claim with them. But I must tell you, the claim can go on for several months. Even longer!!!

[Bergo]

curious to know what was wrong with the carbs as well. obviously there was no visible damage, and all the linkages moved freely, no binding, no obviously bent parts? Hard to blame the seller unless he knowingly stated something untrue. I've purchased parts, had them sit on the shelf, changed direction before using them, and sold them without ever having put them into operation.

[Farrell]

Originally Posted by javadog

What, exactly, was wrong with the carb bodies?
Was was the final disposition of the carbs? Are yo using them now, were they repaired, were they replaced?
What was known of their prior use, as disclosed by the seller?

JR

No, i purchased new carb bodies (pictures below). Between Richard and John Truman, they said they couldn't figure out what exactly was wrong with them. I let them keep the bodies for now so they can locate the issue and maybe help out another individual down the line.

The seller said he traded a set of 50 PMOs for these and then had these sitting around his garage for a while. He said they were used on a 3.2ss motor but they guy he traded was building a 3.6? and wanted bigger carbs hence the trade from 46 to 50's.





This is what i bought.


its a crappy situation for sure, and i hope the seller didn't intend to do this. i just feel I've been taken to the cleaner on this one. I paid $1000 for new carb bodies and if i was reimbursed for that i would feel a lot better off.

I sold a set of wheels, one turned out to be cracked, i refunded the buyer his money. Not his fault they were cracked, not mine either, but i didn't have the guys number i bought them from, so i ate the cost.

Im not trying to screw the seller on this, but the money i spent on this was significant.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by Farrell

Between Richard and John Truman, they said they couldn't figure out what exactly was wrong with them.

This means that the seller should not even consider refunding any money - no proof that anything is wrong with the bodies.

If I sold something to someone that later contacted me and said something is wrong with the part but two pros don't know what, I would assume that the buyer was trying to pull a fast one and cease communication with him at that point.

[cpcooper]

What a mess! I don't think I'll ever sell anything again.

I think where it should go from here might depend on the seller's wording in the original ad; if I'd sold them to you and said "like new, function perfectly" I'd feel like I got off easy refunding $1,000. On the other hand, he didn't try them out and didn't have any control over what you did with them or the guys you subsequently worked on them, so SOL comes to mind.

[NYNick]

I'm not sure where the fault lies here. You went considerable distance to get these things working correctly, but what if he didn't know they were bad?

If I had a set of carbs lying around that I sold, I wouldn't really feel responsible when the buyer couldn't get them to work correctly. Even the experts can't figure out what's wrong..how could the seller even have known?

I guess there's middle ground here for the truly honest. If the seller is a really, REALLY stand up guy, he might pony up some refund money...but how much? He doesn't have the carbs anymore, and what if he didn't know they were bad....geez, tough call.

Good luck with this one.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

This means that the seller should not even consider refunding any money - no proof that anything is wrong with the bodies.

If I sold something to someone that later contacted me and said something is wrong with the part buy two pro's don't know what, I would assume that the buyer was trying to pull a fast one and cease communication with him at that point.

I kind of agree. Money was spent to replace parts and that fixed the problem. But the actual manufacturer of the questionable part says he doesn't know what's wrong with it? That's just weird.

A carb body is a casting. If something is worn or cast wrong one should be able to see that there is an issue. I know that when there's a problem with one of my gears I can figure it out in 20 minutes or less. Something's not right here.

[bpu699]

If there was something wrong with the carbs that the PO hid or intentionally didn't disclose, they should make it right...

That doesn't sound to be the case here...

If I sold a part to someone and they contacted me 6 months later and said...

I think your part is bad, but now sure how...

I know its been 6 months...

The part has been fiddled with for months, diassembled, worked on, and we think it doesn't work...

I want my money back... or some kind of discount...


Pretty sure most folks wouldn't do that...

Most folks are reasonable. Parts are bought as is... you want a warranty, buy new. Most sellers aren't in a position to do refunds 6-12 months later on parts that were installed.

I have bought lots of parts on the net. Some exceeded my expectations, some were garbage. Thats the odds you play when you buy used. It doesn't always mean the seller did something wrong...

I think most folks are reasonable. You buy something, get it, and a couple days later it dosn't work... lets talk...

6-8 months later, thats a different scenario...

[Bergo]

Originally Posted by bpu699

you want a warranty, buy new.

Hit the nail on the head there. Buy straight from PMO if you want a warranty. In fact, if PMO can't figure out what was wrong with the part, I'd expect them do do something for you before the seller.

[Farrell]

I understand completely, such a crap shoot.

The carb bodies were being sent to Richard so he can try to figure out what was wrong with them. I can get the carb bodies back and send them to the original seller if that makes them feel better.

I agree, its messy, but by no means am i trying to pull a fast one on anyone. I have sold plenty here and refunded people when things don't work correctly even a month or two later. I suppose thats the difference between him and I.

Again, I'm not blaming the seller for creating the problem, just stating the major issues i have ran into along the way of getting these running correctly.

The car would not idle correctly, which Richard and John said they believe there is a hairline crack in the bodies, which created the idle issue. I am having the carbs sent to Richard and maybe he can identify EXACTLY what is wrong. Richard is in California and John and I are out in the Midwest, so it takes quite some time when shipping things back and forth, it puts things on hold for a week at a time, ergo the time delay in the whole process.

At this point, I'm out my money and my car runs, so there is a pro in this process.

It is what it is.

[Farrell]

Originally Posted by Bergo

Hit the nail on the head there. Buy straight from PMO if you want a warranty. In fact, if PMO can't figure out what was wrong with the part, I'd expect them do do something for you before the seller.

Yep, no more used parts here for this guy.

Richard gave me a deal on the carb bodies and John quit charging me after a while because he felt so bad he couldn't figure it out.

[javadog]

It's not clear to me whether the seller ever used these. So, I don't know that he would have known anything was wrong with them.

A hairline crack is odd enough, but I'd be hard pressed to understand how both of them had that problem, given no visible damage. My money would be on worn parts. Time will tell.

I'm sorry you had this problem, but I don't know that anyone involved should be blamed. If the seller wanted to be a nice guy, he could try and work something out with you but I don't see him as automatically liable for anything, unless there's more to the story that none of us know about.

May be one of those things...

JR

[bpu699]

Originally Posted by Farrell

I understand completely, such a crap shoot.

The carb bodies were being sent to Richard so he can try to figure out what was wrong with them. I can get the carb bodies back and send them to the original seller if that makes them feel better.

I agree, its messy, but by no means am i trying to pull a fast one on anyone. I have sold plenty here and refunded people when things don't work correctly even a month or two later. I suppose thats the difference between him and I.

Again, I'm not blaming the seller for creating the problem, just stating the major issues i have ran into along the way of getting these running correctly.

The car would not idle correctly, which Richard and John said they believe there is a hairline crack in the bodies, which created the idle issue. I am having the carbs sent to Richard and maybe he can identify EXACTLY what is wrong. Richard is in California and John and I are out in the Midwest, so it takes quite some time when shipping things back and forth, it puts things on hold for a week at a time, ergo the time delay in the whole process.

At this point, I'm out my money and my car runs, so there is a pro in this process.

It is what it is.

Youre not the first this has happened to, and you won't be the last... Thats where the legal tenet of Caveat emptor came from...

From the sellers point if view, how do they know that something didn't happen to the carbs while in your possession?

Could you send the parts to PMO to get checked out/repaired? Then you can resell... You may find that the manufacturer may just replace some of the parts as goodwill...

[usera]

I know it is tough to hear, but bpu699 is right here. Put yourself it the sellers shoes and see if you think you are being reasonable.

6 Months, many hands fiddling with them, no strong conclusion that the parts are 100% bad. Worth a try though, a buyer complained to me about a n amp I sold a year ago for $100. I gave him the money because I didn't want to deal with guy who emails me a year after selling him an amp advertised as 8 years old.

[wachuko]

My grandfather used to say... we pay for what we learn. Sometimes we pay with tears, work, or money...

Lesson learned. Very sorry to read that it cost you so much. We have all been there in some shape or form. Glad your car is now working fine again. Try to put a lot of miles on it so that the enjoyment vs pain suffered ratio is negligible.

And I do appreciate you sharing the experience. It will help others for sure.

[pmax]

Sorry to hear of the troubles.

Tom is just expecting the seller to stand behind his statements. That's absolutely reasonable.

There are many reputable sellers (and Tom is one of them) here who will do just that
and will work with the buyers to make things right for all parties.
That's what makes this place different, the sense of community and implicit trust.

If the seller said "these carbs were essentially new and ... there was nothing wrong with them.",
then he should stand behind that and not stay silent.

[911SauCy]

[QUOTE=Farrell;8898999]
its a crappy situation for sure, and i hope the seller didn't intend to do this. i just feel I've been taken to the cleaner on this one.

I'm just going to be this guy and say... you bought them, couldn't get them running properly, brought them to a pro who then couldn't diagnose/fix without a physical part replacement...

...they we're for sale for a reason my friend.

[speednme1]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

This means that the seller should not even consider refunding any money - no proof that anything is wrong with the bodies.

If I sold something to someone that later contacted me and said something is wrong with the part but two pros don't know what, I would assume that the buyer was trying to pull a fast one and cease communication with him at that point.

I have to agree with Ronnie. If the bodies are not visually damage how can the seller know for sure that something was wrong with them. This is a tough call but you may have to chalk this one up as a lesson learned. Some parts..when possible should be purchased new.

In somewhat of a comparison, I sold a ring and pinion to a guy I know is a buyer and seller of Porsche parts. He contacted me(a few weeks later) to say that his mechanic said that the parts may not be useable(due to markings on the parts). I told the buyer the markings were normal for a used item but if he felt uneasy I would give him a full refund. I did tell him though, that I would match up the items with the many photos I took before the sale... before I would issue a refund (just to make sure a swap wasn't being attempted). I guess the ring and pinion worked out as he stopped contacting me and no longer requested a refund..