M&K muffler problem - help please
 

I'm having a problem installing an M&K stainless muffler on an 85 Carrera. the muffler is a one in two out with the out pipes side by side a la Singer. stock heat exchangers and cat. stock muffler was in place with no issues and centered.

removed stock muffler, installed the M&K, and the outlet pipes are easily 2-1/2 inches to the left of center. on advice from M&K I loosened all the heat exchanger bolts and the cat bolts. a serious PITA by the way and not something I've ever done just to install a muffler. and chancy with existing gaskets, I expect some leaks now.

with a bunch of wiggling, rotating the inlet sleeve, and a cinch strap pulling the muffler to the right, I was able to get the muffler within about 1-1/2 inches of center.

I measured the stock muffler from center of inlet to center of muffler. then measured the M&K from center of inlet to center of pipes. guess what, I found the missing 1-1/2 inches. the M&K is that much less measuring inlet to center.

an email from M&K was pretty condescending. with an offer to ship it back at my expense to be 'checked'. and certainly not addressing the discrepancy in measurements. they did say this was a 'custom' muffler so no jig could have been used.

I've got two M&K on my cars now and had none of these issues when installing. just took off the old muffler and installed the new one without any loosening of the whole exhaust system. which I find beyond ridiculous BTW. a muffler should bolt on, period.

any thoughts or suggestions? anyone else run into this problem? faced with a $200 shipping cost back to M&K, in addition to the $1200 already paid for the muffler, at this point I'm looking for options to make this work. my thought right now is to install a cat bypass and bend it to make up the difference in the offset.


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That is some poor quality control on that muffler.

Hi Don.... I wouldn't be too happy either. I have a few M&K mufflers and haven't run into that issue, but I do have a 2 in-1 out that I wanted to put on my 71 but it interfered with the brackets on the bumpers. I would have thought they would have stepped up and repaired or replaced your muffler at their cost. Let us know what happens.

Strap on the mounting clamps with the muffler centered without bolting to inlet to the collector. I think you will see that the angle of the inlet may be off a bit.

To correct for the angle, loosen the mounting clamps until you can angle the edge of the inlet on and the start slowly tightening the clamps. Heat will help, maybe pull it with your cinch strap. The clamps are key to pulling the muffler into place.

Also have you checked to ensure your engine is centered, sometimes they move a bit on the mounts.

the pipes aren't even close to being centered on the engine. exhaust moves with the engine.

I tried clamping the muffler in place first. with everything else loose I couldn't even get bolts through the cat holes. miles away. heat and cinch straps are NOT the way to install a muffler. unbolt old, bolt on new.

my first assumption in a case like this is that the part is right and either the car is wrong or I'm doing something wrong. I've exhausted every avenue here. matching up the old muffler and the new is the clincher. I even bolted the old muffler back on to see if anything had moved, it bolted up perfectly centered. the measurements tell the tale in this case.

I'll have to check the centering on mine, I have the same muffler. I haven't been thrilled with the initial fit either. It hits the bumper shock on the driver's side, so the whole thing is canted downward there. I'm getting ready to do an RS bumper, so I did not spend a ton a of time perfecting the fit yet, but I did take two cracks at it with the same result. We'll see when I get the bumper and shocks off. I will check the centering in relation to the lid like you did here.

yes. please check yours. more the relationship to engine center. as noted above, the engine can move a bit. although I expect within a 1/4 inch or so.

Hi, did the M&K muffler come with a new muffler braket that replacs the stock one inuding the two stainless round clamps?

These pictures are more helpful to see what is going on than the ones I have received. We do not advertise the 1/GT3 mufflers as they are more tedious to install than the single inlet single outlet version and are mainly sold to mechanics and shops.

The muffler needs to be mounted to the engine with the tailpipes positioned center before anything else is done.

The stock bracket is used along with the clamp included in the install kit. Next the catalytic converter is loosened from the exchangers and the cat outlet bolted to the muffler inlet. In some cases time and heat have caused the OEM system to warp badly enough that it must be loosened and re-aligned. If at this point proper alignment cannot be achieved we know we have done everything prudent and I need the muffler back to check it.

Looks to me like that muffler was not correctly made. M&K should clearly step-up and take care of this. The buyer should not be on the hook for shipping. Now if the muffler turns out to be "in spec" then the buyer has some 'splainin to do". I also do not believe one should have to loosen the entire exhaust system to fit a new muffler. PS - I do like the close dual outlet look.

Remember that "in spec" on M&K's jig (based on an early motor, not in a car) in their shop, versus fit correctly on a customers car can be very different. M&K cannot be in 2 places at once, and most customers cannot go to their shop for install....so diagnosing these issues can be a challenge on both ends. I had similar issues with an M&K System over the summer. Once we had exhausted (no pun intended) ALL other options they stepped up for me.

I've already tried everything you suggest here. if the stock system is so badly warped why does the stock muffler fit up perfectly without clamps or loosening? part of the problem may also be that, as you can see in the pic, the inlet pipe is not square to the muffler.

a $200 cost to send it back to you, so that you can tell me it's 'in-spec' isn't really an option.

tell you what. go find a stock muffler for a 3.2. measure inlet to center of muffler, then measure your jig. I spent most of a day struggling with this thing before I compared the two mufflers. I really did assume the muffler was correct.

I also don't understand why I need to loosen an entire exhaust system, breaking the gasket seal and introducing leaks,just to bolt on a muffler :eek:

can you tell me a shortcut to 'exhausting all other options? I'm exhausted with this already :rolleyes:

I've gotten a few PM's from members that have also had this kind of issue with M&K mufflers. apparently this is not at all uncommon.

Seems like it'd be a simple task to take a few measurements on the muffler and compare that to the M&K specs. A few minutes taking measurements beats a $200 shipping charge.

Perhaps a video call - Skype or FaceTime - between M&K and the customer where they could see the measurements and adjustments being done, etc., would save everyone some headache? Just thinking aloud...

That's why it's called "fitting" with 35 years of welding experience, and plenty of it on stainless, the movement while heating/heated is crazy. If you wanted to correctly "fit" the exhaust, completely remove every component, regasket all joints, loosely attaching all flanges with bolts and nuts. Start pushing, cajoling and wiggling until the correct alignment is achieved. Then slowly start tightening all the joints. Stainless is a fickle *****, and used, heat distorted OEM stuff can be the worst.
When my 3.2 had the stock exhaust system, I removed the cat, and went to install the Fabspeed bypass tube and had to tweak the OEM components back into line to get the Fabspeed tube to line up.

If you understood, then you would understand. You are not walking on uncharted territory. The guys who have spent a lifetime twisting wrenches understand, that's how it goes and just forge ahead. That's why they get paid a decent wage to do what they do.

This is spot on.

As much as we like exhausts to be 'plug and play' given the variables they are not the latest Iphone IoS version that can be simply uploaded and enjoyed.

For example if you look at one particular famous STR build it's obvious the builder expected the exhaust outlets to be much higher that they ended up given the cut out provisions that were made in the rear bumper in advance of fitting the engine & exhaust.

Years ago I called MK because the outlet on my new single-in/single-out muffler was interfering with the bumper. He explained all that has been mentioned above about welded metal moving around incredibly during the heat of welding plus during the heat of use.

In my case Ben asked if I had run the car with the muffler yet. The answer was "no" so he had me flex the muffler to the desired position. He explained that the heat cycles of use would make the stainless take a "set" but before it has been run it is amazingly ductile. He was right!

The rest of your exhaust system would have gone through all the movement and "take a set" portion of its life so it ended up where it is while being bolted together so they are all ok.

With the new muffler you will need to work with it but I would give MK a call as they will know what you will need to do to get it into spec. Plus if there is an issue they can identify it and they will resolve it.

Plug and play does not apply to exhaust, don't kid yourself.

Good luck I hope you figure it out. My experience with my M&K product was similiar, it was a PITA to install, and I had to work hard to get it installed right. Customer service was excellent and I even got over the phone assistance, they did everything possible to ensure I was satisfied.

How could this be so far off the stock unit? The center of the inlet flange measured to the center of the muffler should be the same as the stock unit, no way around that, and no way the process of welding stainless made that measurement off. Bending and twisting are one thing, shrinking and stretching not.

Looking and thinking about the position of the outlet pipes on that muffler, I'm thinking hmmm, looks like maybe somebody used the center of the cooling fan which is offset to the left of the center of the car. So I go out in the garage to check that on my SC. Pull the rear decklid cable and the decklid is stuck!:mad::rolleyes:

I just installed a single in-GT3 style on my car. Previous comments were spot on, regarding fitting up of aftermarket parts, especially exhaust.
Brian was clear about the muffler possibly not fitting with the IROC/RSR bumper. He was right, the new bumper is so much more flush to the car that the drivers side of the can interfered with the bumper. Thats what heat and a hammer are for. I tweaked and clearanced the bumper and muffler and it was pretty good. At the time I had a cat installed, but it was a home made setup for smog purposes, and I didnt build it.
It was centered within 1/2 of correct. After running the car through smog and putting some miles on it, I decided it needed to be a little quieter for my taste, and used the test pipe that came with the car to create a second muffler section.
To make it all fit right, I hung the muffler and centered it, as well as leveled it., Then I bolted on the flange to the exchangers. I had this chopped off just after the merge. I then positioned the muffler and pipe in such a way as to pull the M&K back 1/4" for more clearance and to maintain the center. I then tacked and then had to weld slowly to avoid the metal from pulling all over the place.
Anyway, if you just got yours, I would guess they are from the same batch, so if they only have one jig, then the muffler should be pretty correct. Brian was great to deal with, and aside from taking a long time, I was happy overall. I am sure if there is a legit issue, they will handle it.

The fact you got an inch of movement confirms it'll take work to fit.

It is easy for the stock muffler to fit, even if the OEM system is badly warped, because of where the stock tailpipe is located. You can push or pull the OEM muffler 1" laterally and never know the tailpipe is off as it will look fine. With the GT3 tailpipes you have ZERO room for error. The GT3 pipes must be on spec in both the vertical and horizontal planes. The only place we could build in adjustment is on the inlet flange. The OEM muffler measurements are of little value when compared to the 1/GT3. The only thing the two have in common is the shape of the inlet flange. The 1/GT3 was not designed around the OEM muffler, it was designed as a stand-alone. The telescoping inlet flange/pipe of the 1/GT3 is angled differently than the OEM muffler and the body of the 1/GT3 is a cylinder, not a hotdog shaped stamped piece of metal. The angles are completely different.

The goal is to have the tailpipes exiting center, where you want them. In order to do that the muffler needs to be mounted to the engine first. Then with the system loose we see what we have to work with. If the cat will not line up with the muffler at that point then we have to take a look at the muffler, which I am very happy to do. Our systems are made by skilled tradesmen in America, not robots. Anyone can have a bad day. We look to improve and appreciate feedback. If other folks have had problems I understand that they vent to others but also please tell us, we can take that info and improve.

don,
That is so far off center.
If i had to work too hard to install it and wasn't feeling the love from the vendor, ..........I'd either return it and get my money back, or as you suggested, modify a cat bypass to get it to line up and move on.

The one thing that the stock muffler and the M&K should have in common is the nominal distance from the mounting flange to the center of the car. With both mufflers off of the car and disconnected from the rest of the system....I.E prior to any "fitting" to the rest of the system, i would expect that the dimension from the mounting flange to the center of the 3.2 muffler, as shown by that indent in the 3.2 muffler lip and the center-line between the two exit pipes on the M&K dimension would have to be the same. Your pix clearly show that they are not even close. On the scale of 1-10, 1 being easy and 10 being very hard, installing a new muffler should be a 2-3. All of the welding horror stories and "special" muffler installation juju should not be the customers concern...........

that's just me, i could be wrong.......

regards,
al

yup. seems a bit much to me too. I've NEVER had to loosen a complete exhaust system, breaking all the gasket seals, just to install a muffler. and even after doing that and trying everything M&K suggested I can only get within an inch and a half!



from responses here and by PM this is far from an isolated incident. M&K shows no inclination to do anything about it so I'm moving to plan B. welding up a custom cat pipe to make it fit. ridiculous.



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well, you've been told, as requested, so you can go ahead and improve for the next guy. while I'm stuck with a very expensive and shiny piece of stainless that I'll have to spend hundreds more to make fit.






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I agree.... I don't expect to pull out the welder and grinder to install a muffler. I also wouldn't expect, like Don said, to have to pull all the bolts and gaskets to fit a muffler. Specially one at or near the top of the price range.

The muffler is not attached to the engine, it is hanging in the breeze. You cannot get an accurate assessment until it is attached to the engine.

I don't understand why you think you are stuck with anything. I have asked many times to send the muffler back. If it is faulty we will make it right.

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And you would be wrong as well. Stainless steel, love it or hate it is not for amateurs.

Or you could follow the mfgs instructions, and do it correctly, or spend "hundreds" and do it your way.
Not sure why the whining is continuing......bourbon?

I'm a little unclear on how you are attaching that muffler to a "stock cat." My next question would be what have you fabricated to mount the muffler to the engine? The stock mount is not going to work.

JR

well, this thread went a bit sideways. thanks to all for their input :)

I don't believe an entire exhaust system should have to be unbolted to put on a muffler. nor should a muffler need to be bolted into place under stress :confused:

the responses here and by PM tell me exactly what I wanted to know. the circular responses and complete lack of response to certain questions by M&K has been very illuminating :rolleyes:

opinions are like tailpipes, everybody has one ;)

I'm done here. thanks again to all who took the time to respond SmileWavy





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I have attached about 6 mufflers to my car, one being a gt3. Each muffler took a little bit of coaxing in regards to pushing and pulling the HE's to get them to attach. The gt3 I had fit great, but it hung 2 inches below the rear FG rs bumper. Once I put SSI's on, it fit perfect. I'm guessing they use a jig when they weld these up, so I'm also guessing that it might have something to do with your HE's, cat, or whatever it is attching to.
Good luck, sounds like they are willing to have you ship it back so go for it.

You must have never owned an American classic or muscle car? This is common place. :)

I installed my M&K Premuffler about 4 years ago ( plug and play ) without a hitch after removing the Factory cat.

Recently installed the Factory European Pre-muffler and to my amazement, it did not fit properly. I saw no apparent damage but my buddy had to pull pretty hard on my muffler about 5-6MM so I could align the bolts at the HE/cross over pipe.

So for me, I guess even OEM can be a little off???

My guess is that your original pre-muffler didn't change while in storage (;)) but most likely your muffler changed shape slightly in the intervening years. Aftermarket muffler?

JR

Nope, stock muffler. I change the cat often, every two years for Smog Checks and testing of course ;)

Sorry for the hi-Jack OP :eek:

Interesting...