The next big thing....3.0 EFI/ITB w/Rasant engine management

[al lkosmal]

David,
Appears to be the same unit you're using and is supplied with the Rasant system. Nice, quality regulator. However, i couldn't get it to regulate down to the correct pressure without first regulating the output of my fuel pump. Not a pressing issue, right now, as I found a solution for the tuning phase, but I will need to look into it further to ensure all is well for the end use/application.

Question: Can you PM me with what pump are you using and....the full spec....your pump is rated at 255lph at what psi?..........

regards,
al

[Tremelune]

Why PM? Someone will be searching for that info one day...

[darud35]

Good to hear the connecting issue was resolved. Nice for people to get real feedback on the interface as well. It's pretty straight forward, especially with a base map already flashed.

Keep up the great work! We're all excited for a video with the flat six ITB notes.

[David Borden]

Originally Posted by al lkosmal

David,
Appears to be the same unit you're using and is supplied with the Rasant system. Nice, quality regulator. However, i couldn't get it to regulate down to the correct pressure without first regulating the output of my fuel pump. Not a pressing issue, right now, as I found a solution for the tuning phase, but I will need to look into it further to ensure all is well for the end use/application.

Question: Can you PM me with what pump are you using and....the full spec....your pump is rated at 255lph at what psi?..........

regards,
al

From what I remember its a Walbro 255lph in tank pump. Walbro Electric In-Tank Fuel Pumps GSS340BX - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

The pressure is ~55psi and the engine I running it on is just shy of 500 crank HP. Andrew may know better, but I would be shocked if that regulator shouldnt work perfectly for this application... especially for the factory Carrera pump. Any change the return line is restricted? What size return line are you running?

[al lkosmal]

Originally Posted by darud35

Good to hear the connecting issue was resolved. Nice for people to get real feedback on the interface as well. It's pretty straight forward, especially with a base map already flashed.

Keep up the great work! We're all excited for a video with the flat six ITB notes.

Last night, I had a few minutes and calibrated the TPS sensor and was able to see the response to changes in the throttle position on several of the AEM screens. Very cool.
This should be good news to all of you out there, following the progress and interested in the AEM Infinity and Rasant kit. I was able to locate and calibrate the TPS (throttle position sensor) sensor just by quickly searching the tabs on the main menu....and once I got to the correct location, the information I needed to input was intuitive.....I.E. it was showing me the voltage output of the TPS at 0% throttle position and then I moved the throttle to 100% and it showed the voltage change. then, basically, you enter those two voltage numbers in the 0% and 100% entry area and....it scales the TPS input and enters it into the ECU memory. Now, admittedly, I've done this a few times before, but not with the AEM unit, so i have a good understanding of what needs to be done...but that was pretty easy.

Tomorrow morning i will plumb in the MAP hoses and away we go......

Note:I've looked into the specs of my fuel pump (964 pump -bosch # 0580464021) and, as far as i can tell, it should work perfectly with the Summit regulator that you've supplied......so , i may need to resolve that issue, prior to firing up.......

[al lkosmal]

There is fire................ok, this is the moment we've all been waiting for.................especially Andy Chapman....ANDY........IT IS ALIIIIIVE!!!!!!!! and you are seeing the 1st fire up and run.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hMuR3DUArM&feature=youtu.be

And it runs damn fine for a start-up file. Nice work by Andrew Darud at Rasant Products. we've been emailing back and forth with some Q&A....but overall, I followed the Rasant manual and the AEM quick start guide, asked questions of Andrew, etc....... and hit the starter. The combo of the
X-faktory EFI/ITB system and the Rasant products engine management system....is a success. I will spend a day or two, fine tuning and will post more video...adding some screen shots for those interested..... and then, when it's perfect...I'll clean it up and crate it up.

Note: Everything went pretty smoothly with the exception of the pressure regulator. I spent a good part of today ensuring that the fuel system was plumbed correctly (done this a few times, but it is always good to triple check) and verified that the return was free-flowing....everything checks out, but the Summit regulator does not work. I plumbed around the regulator return and regulated the pressure down with a different regulator. I suspect that this Summit regulator is faulty and needs to be replaced, but I'll take it out of the system and check it on the bench, before it gets returned. Minor issue, in the scheme of things and easily fixed/replaced.

[David Borden]

Congrats Al! Sounds great and really responsive. Is the VE load table calculated via TPS/MAP or MAP only?

[al lkosmal]

Thanks David,
As you can see from the video...this is a torque monster. I just bought an industrial strength test stand from a local Porsche shop. Looks like it will come in handy......my current stand works well and has for many engine tests...but looks a little weebly.

VE load table is MAP based and seems to work very well. However, TPS sensor cal is loaded and TPS/Alpha N is supported by this ECU for those that want it.

regards,
al

[jpnovak]

Nice work Al.

Is there a way to program a blend of Speed Density and alpha-N? Basically load and transition points between MAP and TPS sensing?

This type of transition can be helpful when tuning ITBs depending on cam choice.

[al lkosmal]

Thanks Jamie.........I know that can be done, using the M'squirt ECUs (we've compared notes over the years and....like you...i have a bit of experience with M'squirt tuning, so I'm comparing my tuning experience with the AEM unit with my M'squirt experience.).... I do not see that blending option for this particular AEM infinity model.......but this is my 1st time using this ECU, so I don't have much experience with it yet...but so far.....I'm impressed.

regards,
al

[David Borden]

If you are using MAP and its that responsive with ITB, that is really impressive! It may be the cams and size of the ITBs that make this possible? I would suspect that it indeed would be a very well mannered torque beast of a street engine.

Speaking with a senior engineer at AEM about this after taking their dealer tuning class, he mentioned that TPS based load table was a good choice for ITB and it works really well. This mode also uses MAP for baro and altitude changes. Its not clear to me what its doing under the hood though. It may be a better choice for engines with larger cams or intake runners.

Based on their feedback I was going to go with the TPS load calculations on my plug and play map for the non ITB Coyote engine Im running, but the car worked sooo well on MAP, Ive never looked back.

David

[jpnovak]

David,

I agree that MAP is generally the best way to tune ITBs. The challenge has always been that the dynamic range of the MAP readings is limited due to the large amount of swept area and lack of vacuum signal present due to most "fun" 911 cams. The latter effect is more present at idle. Tuning ITBs requires some special tricks for setting up fuel and spark tables as well as overall tuning. Not hard once you figure these out. Having a stable vacuum signal at idle is generally the most difficult obstacle - especially with high overlap cams.

I usually have issues with TPS-only tuning in low speed, low TPS inputs. The conditions for tip-in and low-speed cruising (think highway) often overlap and they have different fueling requirements.

on Megasquirt (which I am most familiar with) there are two modes available in different firmware. One is a MAP to TPS changeover and the other is a specific ITB mode. All 4 modes (speed density [MAP only], alpha-N [TPS only], MAP/TPS blend and ITB mode all have their advantages and disadvantages when tuning ITBs. Understanding the capability just allows the tuner to pick the right setup for a particular engine configuration.

I am trying to learn the capability of the AEM system through Al. I do a number of EFI conversions locally each year and am always looking closely at the cost/benefit of available systems.

[Bergo]

looks awesome Al. Saw this earlier on facebook, nice to see more details here! don't know how I missed this thread?

[darud35]

Great to see the engine running, Al! Sorry for the troubles with the Summit regulator. We will get that resolved quickly. It should still be under warranty from Summit.

Regarding the TPS vs MAP debate I've used both methods on my ITB's and haven't noticed significant improvements with either. I believe this comes down to tuner preference. The key for me was updating the "Wall Wetting" table within the Infinity Software. This is used for fuel enrichment/cut with RPM on the Y-axis and rate of change of throttle position on the X-axis.

[David Borden]

Originally Posted by darud35

Great to see the engine running, Al! Sorry for the troubles with the Summit regulator. We will get that resolved quickly. It should still be under warranty from Summit.

Regarding the TPS vs MAP debate I've used both methods on my ITB's and haven't noticed significant improvements with either. I believe this comes down to tuner preference. The key for me was updating the "Wall Wetting" table within the Infinity Software. This is used for fuel enrichment/cut with RPM on the Y-axis and rate of change of throttle position on the X-axis.

That doesn't surprise me. The guys I spoke with at AEM said the TPS load is very good on the Infinity as well. I have had several friends that have tried to tune ITB intakes on other FI systems and have had real challenges getting them to be well mannered on the street.

I have been told the VE table will need to change some in the partial loads between both methods but have no idea how much. Andrew, if you have a feel for it, how do your tables compare between the two given the same engine configuration.

Based on this and other feedback I have heard, seems the Infinity works well both ways. Will be interesting to see more feedback on this over time.

[David Borden]

Originally Posted by jpnovak

on Megasquirt (which I am most familiar with) there are two modes available in different firmware. One is a MAP to TPS changeover and the other is a specific ITB mode. All 4 modes (speed density [MAP only], alpha-N [TPS only], MAP/TPS blend and ITB mode all have their advantages and disadvantages when tuning ITBs. Understanding the capability just allows the tuner to pick the right setup for a particular engine configuration.

I am trying to learn the capability of the AEM system through Al. I do a number of EFI conversions locally each year and am always looking closely at the cost/benefit of available systems.

Jamie, thanks for the feedback! Until I got involved with the AEM product, my first project was going to be the MS3 Pro and try the ITB mode. It really seems like a pretty trick way to go. I love the open source aspect of MS. Its really turned in to an impressive product over the years!

Im no expert, but have been through the 2 day training. If you have questions on the Infinity, let me know.

David

[al lkosmal]

OK........I'm back. i've spent some time now, balancing the ITB airflow, etc. The engine build is a success and it runs like a scalded cat on the test stand using the Rasant Engine management system. This is a great combo and the end result will make Andy Chapman the terror of the canyons. I have some final details and clean up.....but i'm ready to crate it and ship it. Once installed, in Andy's 74....additional fine tuning, under load, wiil be required for best performance....but the maps that Andrew Darud at Rasant is providing seem to work very well and he is perfecting them on his own 911.

Sucess!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig-paaLh2KY

[Tremelune]

That thing is gonna twist your stand asunder...

[al lkosmal]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

That thing is gonna twist your stand asunder...

This is true....I purchased this stand from Costco many years ago. It is designed for V8s. i figured that I could mod it to work with 911 engines....and I did. Has worked well and served its purpose. However, a couple of weeks ago, one of the local Porsche shops moved into a new space and sold me a test stand that is built to withstand direct nuclear blasts.
I need to add a fuel tank, big-ass casters, dashboard, laptop desk, etc.....but this one should support some serious power.....






Note: I have 4 more 911 engines in the queue....needing to be tested.

[Ferrino]

Awesome - it looks like some sort of medieval torture device.