Is there any interest in something like this???
 

Carbon Fiber Carbon Fiber Carbon Fiber!!!


Tonight I put the finishing touches on a mold for the engine compartment fuse panel cover.
I used Bondo of all things and it has been the best mold material that i've found to date.

For some reason Pelican is not letting me upload the photos right now so i'll try here in a bit.

Bottom line is, I'm going to give this a whack and see what happens. If (and I stess the word "if") I am successful, I could definately make batches of these parts if there is any interest in them.

The fuse panel cover is a very simple part and Glenn and I have been talking about other ideas. (In particular, the CIS air filter cover) This part in particular is a toughy and will require quite a bit of head banging before I ever get it right.
But, the idea is up there in my head and firmly planted.
There are at least a dozen little parts all throughout the car that has pieces I could make out of Carbon Fiber.

Obviously, the more I do the better I'll get.

I'll post more details tomorrow.

"Benifits of having a Carbon Fiber Fuse panel cover on your 911."

A: It's quite simple really... Lighter! You'll be running quicker lap times before the end of the week!

Whoo Hoo!


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/mold111.jpg

Leland

Notwithstanding the usual issue for me (New Zealand is far away and shipping always kills it) - I need one of these (in any material!) so would ordinarily be very very interested.

For the right price, you should get people after the http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/im...s/buttrock.gif cool factor http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/im...s/buttrock.gif too....

And more benefits! Could you argue that carbon fibre has better heat reflection than plastic? Protect that CD box from heat?

The only problem with Noah's theory ... is that all unique 917 parts had a part number beginning with '912' ... for security reasons during the development lead time!. Although, logically, it could also be argued that the 917 project was a 900-series racecar with a 12-cylinder engine, and that the part number series was of a generic nature.

How about recreating the blower cover panel in the front trunk area, these are always in fair shape on the older cars and it'd be nice to have something more durable.

Lee,

Can I send you my doors and hood then?

I've always thought a CF engine shroud would make a really nice engine compartment enhancing part...

The thing I REALLY need is that cover to replace the blower tube driven off the engine... THe one to the left of the fan...

Isn't CF conductive?

Lee, after what you posted in the off toic forum about one of your average days, I have decided that I will always agree with you, even if I don't agree with you. I do NOT want to get on your bad side.

I will buy sixteen of them.

HA! You must have seen my "day in the life of an EOD guy" post! :)

Yes, I understand CF is conductive (and flamable, but I'm not making anything that would require something non-conductive.

Today i put this sucker in the mold... we'll see how it goes.

I too have thought about a replacement for the trunk fiber board blower motor cover doo hickie... I can't use mine for a mold because it is pretty warped, but maybe someone could donate theirs for the "cause".

I figure you'd just make a mold of the fiber board portion and dismount the metal "legs" by drilling out the rivits.

Then you simply make these on an exchange basis... people send you their old fiberboard part. I dismount the metal legs and attach them to the new CF part.


Man, I might be looking at some of these laminate vacuum systems yet!
:)

Oh, and Chris, I too was thinking about making the little air guide plastic part on the left side of the motor. More to come.


Lee

cool...all "dr.s" will be first in line to buy

another simple piece I'd love to see are the 2 triangular block off plates on either side of the engine fan...one of mine, one of the brackets are broken...

do you plan to make them shiney CF or matte CF...(Iprefer matte)

good luck!!

(how about a CF 911SC badge?!?!)

Dr. MJ

Mark, Tell me how to do matte and I'll do matte.

That's one of the things i'm trying to figure out. If there are imperfections on the CF when it comes out of the mold... cna you sand them down and get everything right then use some sort of epoxy coating to get a good surface?

Is that what they call a gelcoat?

Lee,

If you make the shroud and/or the left side doohickie, count me in for one of each.

Chris

i brought up the idea of CF in a couple past threads...I don't know if matte/glossy was discussed...but some guys had great tips...also didn't Thom Fitz make some RS Cup tubes?

an educated guess: I am thinking it is the type of resin that is used. (I like matte cuz it is less flashy)

The reason I was thinking of CF was I have access to a biomed lab, and we use autoclaves (massive pressure and massive temps) to steralize and to make things.

I know REAL CF needs an autoclave and I think it might need a vacuum as well...but anyways...

keep us updated...if I ever have some free time I may try my hand at CF with the autoclaves...

MJ

Nope. Too--Well, too.....rice. There. Now I've said it.

"Benifits of having a Carbon Fiber Fuse panel cover on your 911." none i guess :D

I don't know how much that engine compartment fuse panel weighs, but my guess would be in the 5 ounce neighborhood. I think you'd have to replace quite a few plastic parts with CF to save, say, 5 lbs. Of course, they would look very very cool. CF parts that replace metal parts would also look cool and save way more weight.

CF shroud already available - I think Smart Racing Products
 

carries them.

A CF engine lid ventilation cover might be worthwhile.

Oh my god...

I was kidding about the weight savings.

There is absolutely NO point in doing this other than the fact that I want to do it.

Call it rice, call it cheese, I could care less.
I want to see if I can make these things and was just wondering if anyone else would like one.

This is not something I ever expected everyone to ooh and ahh about.

I have never done anything like this before. I want to start with something simple, easy and....just about worthless... that way, in a worst case senario, I am not "out" anything.

The better I get the more complicated parts I can make.
I enjoy doing stuff like this.

How about a CF cup holder?

Or maybe a CF interior door panel?

But seriously, I like the idea of CF fuse and air box panels from the point of view it really doesn't matter. If you are having fun building them and like it then there is no issue. Please let us see what you come up with.

My one reservation would be for the air box cover, will you have to do anything special to keep the cover from flexing at the mating surface with the bottom half of the air box? There is a nice curve to the box to distrubute the loads from the rubber staps directly to the mating surface. Is CF stiff enough to stop the cover from bowing out and losing the seal? Just asking.

Gary,
If I ever get good enough at this to attempt making a repro of the air box cover, it would be identical to the original. With the beveled edge 'round the bottom.
The problem with the air box cover is the shape... it would be easy if it weren't for that darn "snout" where the air is drawn in.

because of this, I'd have to make basically two molds (two halfs) of the orignal air box, then wrap the original piece with CF, then clamp the two mold halfs around the whole thing to hold it in place. Then the problem lies in getting the airboz back out of there after the CF is hard. ( the flared end of the opening is the problem)

If I had an extra air box cover, I could cut the snout off and temp. put it back on there so when it is used for the form inside the mold, I can pull the body out, then pull the cut piece out from the small opening.

As we speak, the fuse panel cover is in the mold.

I used two sheets of CF. I laid each on plastic and squeegied the epoy on both sides, then laid them on the mold. I gently tucked them in the corners as best I could to avoid "pulling" the CF as best I could. then I laid the original piece behind it and gently and evenly used clamps to hold it all in place.
I bought the 2 hr hardener because I wanted some extra reassurance. That turned out to be a mistake. It only took me about ten minutes from start to finish so it was really overkill.

Well, by the time I'm ready to leave work, it should be hard and I can see if what I did will work or not.

Wish me luck boys... :)

Here is what Glenn and I were talking about.

You'd have to do something like this to make a mold of the air box.

The CF would wrap around the original box, then you'd clamp the mold around it to hold the CF in place.

The problem lies with getting the snout of the air box out of the carbon fiber.

The second rendition I drew is an easier way to do it. Simply delete the snout all together and just cut a hole as shown in red across the bottom for the air to be drawn through.

Yes, I know this idea will spark great debate about all sorts of stuff. From the way the air box cover is positioned on the airbox, I wouldn't think water would get in any easier with the hole down there than it does where it in the first place.

Sorry for the crummpy drawings. All i know how to use is MS paint! :)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...ox paint11.jpg

Lee,
what you made with the bondo is a plug. Now you need to make a mold off the plug otherwise you will wind up with the rough side of the finished part on the outside. If you don't gelcoat the mold before laying up the part you will end up with a matt finish that is textured like the cf. Most shiney cf finishes have been gel coated, wet sanded and sprayed again with poly-u finish then wet sanded again then polished. Also you can tape off the mold all around the edges and put a black gelcoat strip about 3/8" around the edge, this hides the edges of the cf where you normally would have problems with narly looking weave patterns and adds a nice finished look to the part. another thing you can do to make a nice part is to make an inner mold of the part{use pattern wax to take up space where the part would be } . Then when you lay up the part just add the inner mold and clamp togather and let cure. You might also try the cf material that is called " Pre-preg" , it already has the resin applied and needs heat to cure but it is easier to handle and lay up.
I am not a expert by any means and just picked up some tips from my fabricator . Good luck with your project.
Jerry

JMPRO, Very GOOD Info!

That's the sort of information I need!

The only thing that's confusing me is what you said about my mold. I did make it so the finished side of the CF would face out.

The only way I can really get it right in my head is by thinking of these items (original parts, molds, plugs, etc.) as Positives and negatives.

The outside of the original part is the positive side.

When I made the mold I, in effect, made a "negative" copy.

Now ehn i laid the CF in the mold, I now have a Positive again.


Right??? :)

By the way, can you use polyester gelcoats with the exopy resin?

Soooo.. you take your mold, coat it with gelcoat (black gelcoat around the edges... lay your CF in the mold and clamp it all down.


Sounds simple.

....yeah right... :)

Leland,
If you ever go to selling these rear fuse box covers, count me in for one. I'd also be on the list for a front blower cover panel, in the front trunk (for my RS, of all things).
GeorgeK

Dude - I am so eagerly awaiting pics of the finished product here. CF is cool (I don't care if I am rice in the engine bay).

Your motivation might have been just
 

for fun, but there is a pretty substantial response. I think there is a big market if the cost isn't too high, tho you may not want to exploit that market.

BTW, what is your doctorate in? MD? or PhD in something?

- Randy (PhD in biology)

I have a PhD in Destruction and Domination... which is about the same thing as basket weaving...isn't it?


:)
It's just an inside joke.

Lee,
i'm sorry you are right, i had to go and take the cover off my car and look at it { my fabricator says" think inside out"}. If you were going to make many copies it would be a good idea to make a fiberglass mold anyway because the bondo mold will not last long before it starts to chip at the edges. If you were to make only a few copies you could spray the inside of the mold with a 2 part epoxy primer and wet sand to a very good finish. I don't know about mixing polester and resin, you can just use than same resin you are using as a gelcoat.
A few co. here in ca. already make the door panels. When i see my fab guy again i will ask him about how to mold the filter cover and see if i can pass some ideas along to you. The nice part about these plastic parts is that when they were made they used negetive drafts so none of them have to be redesigned to be copied.
Jerry

Okay, I'll chime in here rather than continuing the PM's with Leland.

For now; FORGET talk about gelcoat and prepreg!

Leland, the two halves pic is just right.
FWIW the factory (roto-mold) tool was 4 pieces to take care of the inside features. . . but that was roto-molded, not a CF lay-up.

So the trick to doing this with the 2-piece mold is to have something on the inside that pushes the CF onto the mold surfaces. . . AND be removable. Some sort of bladder is going to be your best bet. You may be able to do this with a specially made vacuum bag.
But experiment on the simpler parts first.

The other way this *can* be done, is the way composite airplane ducts are made. This is where you make a plaster plug that you would wrap the CF around. You then bag it, let it set, and then knock the plaster out. (there is aslo a water dissolvable version of the plaster. . but, KISS--keep things simple stupid)

Replacing plastic fuse panel covers and FG air shrouds with CF is good for effect, but why not make something that's really useful in the realm of more significant weight savings? Here are a couple of parts to challenge anyone's fab skills:

L and R rear taillight housings or a DIDO muffler in CF. It doesn't have to be shiny, just light.

Just my $.02
Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

Leland - good skills :)

Hey, I don't wanna sound like your mother here mate, but someone did a posting a month ago on this BBS and said carbon fibre is very nasty stuff to breathe as it has small barbs on each fibre and your body can't flush it out like it can fibreglass.

I just found the thread http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/85855-insane-idea-72901-can-carbon-fiber-fabric-used-make-clothing.html?highlight=barbs

taillight housings are fairly complex geometry.

On the muffller, I would think CF would transmit quite a bit of sound. .. like a tight drum skin.

Sherwood... I'm crawling here... not walking yet... :)

Bill, the fibers are dangerous and when i cut it I'll be wearing a respirator.

CF isn't near as bad for you as Carbon Boron, which is used allot in aircraft surfaces. Now THAT stuff is dangerous.

I keep thinking of those kids who were picking up the pieces of the downed F-117 in Kosovo. That thing is almost all Carbon Boron.
They were waving them at the TV cameras... too bad that they didn't now that they'll probably all have cancer in about 10 to 20 years.

Hmmm, Dr. Pate? This wouldn't be a SCWDP plot would it? We all know of your expertise with plastic explosives, explosives that can be moulded. I can see it now...SC guys get carbon fiber, but the early 911 guys? They get.....:eek:

"On the muffller, I would think CF would transmit quite a bit of sound"

Yeah, I know. :)

Here's an example:

I haven't A-B'd metal vs CF versions of these mufflers, but I'd think the noise is controlled just like any other regular muffler - with internal baffling. Bracing inside the shell could counter any affects to transmit noise "like a tight drum skin."

There's no reason why an existing muffler manufacturer (or enterprising DIYer) couldn't adapt metal inlet and outlet sections to a custom CF muffler shell.

Jerry, you now have a new product to develop for pcars.


Sherwood

with internal baffling
 

heh-heh, Sherwood :)

So, pretty much a CF cover. . .bling-bling, C'ching-C'ching ;)

Seriously, I vote for the front trunk blower cover...it and the front trunk fuse cover were both made of cheap pressed cardboard...and in many cars they've simply rotted away...

An easy piece I was going to fab for my car is the plate that goes under the fuel pump and steering rack.

Oh no..... Paul's on to me!!!!!!!!!!

:D

If i could figure out how to make a mold for the front trunk piece, I would... but as it sits right now, I'm not sure how i'd do it. Mine is actually still out of the car from the heater saga so I'll go look at it again and see if I can come up with an idea or two.

Thom, that is a great idea too... and at least half-weay functional to boot!

If only i had a pristine example to make a mold from... mine is all beat up.

"So, pretty much a CF cover. . .bling-bling, C'ching-C'ching"

Island911,
I don't think these Yoshimuras are built like the mufflers one finds in a ricer-mobile (CF jacket over metal muffler shell), just the "C'ching-C'ching" (real thing). But I could be wrong.

Sherwood

Yeah, I'm just say'n; the CF isn't buying you anything in this muffler application. (other than Ooooh:eek: )