Another reason original, pre-996 911s run dry sump oil systems is that it allows the engine to be mounted lower in the car, the benefits being a lower centre of gravity and better handling!

Yeah, Adam, the low mounting of the engine also allowed that distinctive rear end design to be possible, too.

Gotta chime in here...

The quote

"I said it before and it seems like it may ring truer now ... Porsche sold its soul to feed its greed. Good thing they built some cars that seem to last forever..."

is what really got my attention. As much as one would like to blame Porsche's supposed greed, we should really look at the marketplace and competition. The market segment that the Porsche's of the past has aimed for is gone, the upper middle and upper class segment buy SUVs far and wide, there is stiff and lower priced competition in the sports car segment whereas in the past there was not. Almost all of Porsche's peers have been bought (Ferrari is owned by Ford? Who would've believed that 10 years ago?).

To stay independent, Porsche has had to make concessions to the marketplace. A lot of people felt/feel the Boxter was not a true Porsche. It's also the car that may have saved the company. The Cayenne is Porsches answer to a market that demands SUVs over sports cars. It is as much a Porsche as any model before it, responding to a market that watches football instead of F1 (or even NASCAR), that has kids earlier in life, that sees big as more important than fast, that sits in traffic, that is obese...

I think that true corporate greed would be to give up and simply be bought out. The sheer determination Porsche has shown to remain one of the very last indepedent marques reveals to me that they have as much passion and courage as ever.

Having said all that, I really enjoy hearing everyone's take on the whole subject not only from a drivers perspective but from an business perspective as well!

(running to take cover)

Moroso and several other companies make the pumps, tanks and lines to convert most engines to dry sump. In fact any engine can be converted but in some cases you'd have to do some fabrication yourself. Dry sump oiling is simply one or more scavenge stages and a presure stage, the scavenge stage sucks the oil and blowby from the crankcase to the oil tank where it is de-aireated then pumped to the pressure gallerys by the pressure stage of the pump. It's used in many forms of racing for multides of reasons like lower CG, crankcase windage, more oil compacity, steady oil supply and pressure under high G applications etc. In fact it is a safety requirement on top fuel drag cars since those cars experience so much cylinder washdown from the nitro-methane that the oil becomes an explosive slush. Top fuel cars also run a secondary pressure system to support the tremendous crank bearing loads that 8000+ HP creates, they use compressed CO2 at 3000 psi to pressurize the crankshaft oil gallery so that the bearings are supported properly by a thin film of oil. All of these aftermarket dry sump systems incorporate an external multi-stage pump driven usually by the crankshaft and typically consist of two scavenge stages with one pressure stage. having said all that Porsche could easily convert the 996 engine to dry sump but why would they? I mean when they already have a proven design with an internal pump it makes little sense to reinvent the wheel. The fact remains that most grassroots race cars don't have dry sump oiling because they really don't need it, not with all the tricks that can be incorporated to a wet sump system for excellent oil control including windage trays, crank scrapers, baffled deep-sump pans, oil gallery restrictors, and high volume pumps.

Oh well enough babbling. ;)

Duck Todd! :D
If Porsche wanted to stay independent so they could continue to produce quality automobiles and go racing that would be one thing. I don't really see that happening. Are any of the formerly independant car companies worse off now? I don't follow racing but aren't those companies (Alfa, Bentley, Ferrari, Jaguar, Volvo, etc) still racing or racing again? Are they producing better cars? [With the exception of the rebadged Ford JagX.]
Do you think if Audi owned Porsche that the interior materials would be at least as nice as an Audi's? Do you think they would be racing?
-Chris

How can leather NOT be standard equipment on an $80, xxx car? Audi A4 3.0's come with leather standard, and wood and it looks very palatable. If you really think of it, where did they put that much money? I rode in a new ('03) BMW 745 (BTW, I am not comparing it to a 996 other than in price) and it has very nice leather, it had rear seat adjustments, heated seats for all, navigation, it had a little drink refrigerator in the middle front console (!), it has big honkin' wheels, a fairly stiff yet very compliant suspension. It has 330hp as I recall and it hauls ass. The brakes do too. It has more gadgets and gizmos than I even know to think about. It had tiny holes in the seats with little fans behind so that when you turn on the A/C, it comes through the seats! Its styling is nice (IMHO) and they don't ask you whether you want to order "footwell lighting" for an additional $600 or "Porsche crest in headrests" for $300 or a $3,xxx leather package. Doesn't an M3 absolutely waste a 996? For $30,xxx less? If you don't need character (which older 911s have a lot of), why would there be any question when looking for a new sports car? Z06=405HP. You can't see the orange peel or the plasticky interior when you're rocketing up an onramp--you just feel the rush! 993s and all Porsches prior to it are in their own league; they are (still) untouchable as my favorite sportscar, no matter how fast the new ones become. Cayenne? BAHHH. What kind of *****head would name a car after a spice? It's like bringing out the new "Paprika" V8 or something. Porsche should have named it that: "Porsche Paprika V8". It has a nice ring to it...

Scott, you're spot on!

Unfortunately, they're just chasing profits and it seems they're cutting corners as they go. A friend of mine (who posts here occasionally), his father bought a new 2002 996 Tiptronic. Within 1500 miles from new, and after TWO REBUILDS his engine was declared legally dead and Porsche took the car back and are in the process of giving him a brand new car. It hadn't even been fully run-in. They're keen for him to keep quiet about it, but it has certainly shattered his confidence in the brand.

He has since lusted after a new M3 (but he won't after we show him the 120+ cars that have rod failures and BMW are reluctant to fix them under warranty!) So, he's awaiting his new 996 (which will be an '03 build) at no cost, but is worried about a repeat performance. His old car, now with only 1700 miles on the clock, is sitting on the yard at the dealers, being offered to the uninformed masses as a "Demonstrator". Let's face it, who goes in to buy a near-new 996, expecting the motor's been through two rebuilds!? I work in the motor trade and I believe disclosure is the cornerstone of true integrity. Porsche seem to have misplaced theirs. :rolleyes:

Why is it sad. Things evolve, and as such so has motor racing. Its no longer the semi-amatuer sport that it once was, nor are the cars.

I think that a lot of it has to do with the changing nature of the automotive industry. Porsche is selling more cars than it has ever done, but not to the same type of people.

Why engineer a vehicle to be robust enough off the shelf to cope with the stress of motor racing when 90% of people purchasing the cars have no intention of doing that.

Where as 20 years ago, maybe 40% of people buying Porsches would take them to the track, Porsche now offers that 10% market specific cars for racing.

Yes, I know Porsche have always been doing this (the Carrera RS through to the GT1) but the question of economics is now to the point that while they still create a wonderful automobile for the masses of people that want excellent street performance (and have the wallet to match). Those interested in racing cars are going to purchase race specific vehicles.

>>Boxster owners who have put in claims for engines blown (on the track) under warranty, have been told that track use is not considered normal use and is not covered<<

Who was STUPID enough to tell the dealer that they blew up their motor on the track?


They don't have too. I was told the computer (OBDII?) constantly stores the engine RPM and road speeds over a set period of time. When you bring in your new 996 with a blown motor, the tech at the dealer is going to download this info. If it shows an average elevated RPM and road speed for the period preceeding the "event"........guess your SOL.

It's a brave new world....

Tinker

Of course the easy way around that is to either clear the computer or buy another one and leave the original at home until you need it. ;)

I will never buy a 996. To me I substitute the words 'drive hard' for racing. I've always driven my car hard, but never harsh. Other than the fact that the period is extended, the car doesn't know whether its on the track or on the street. With that said, the 996 is obviously built to be at the upper limit of its design criteria when driven hard, otherwise why void the warranty. The 993 and earlier Porsche's, designed to be raced first and foremost, are well within their design criteria when driven hard. To me this means the engine and suspension wear on the 996 will be greater, and future 996 owners will have to be concerned about where in that design envelope a particular car spent time.

This also means the value of the 996 will drop drastically when it is out of warranty. When searching for a good used car over 5 years old, most owners are concerned about reliability. Worrying what will happen if they push the car for an extended period is a condition I can avoid by avoiding the 996. Besides, in ten years, will a buyer want to purchase a '98 993 or a '99 996. The warranty issue will be a moot point but the reliability will not. This whole period of the mid to late nineties for Porsche will be compared to the Worldcom/Enron greed; same basis for decisions, different industry.

Hey let's not be so hard on the 996 ... it isn't fair. It's really a pretty good car, although if given the choice I might consider changing a couple things: front bumper design, front fender design, oh..oh..and the hood as well. Thats all I would change...... oh and the rear quarters, I would probably change those....and if I'm changing those I might as well modify the rear bumper and deck lid and change the flow of the roof line just to finish it off. Of course the interior would be tweaked a bit, nothing more than replacing the dash, door panels, seats...etc... Oh...and a fan..yeah a fan. I need that fan sound, but it would be a waiste to put a fan on a water cooled boxer so I think I will go ahead and replace it with a 993 plant. That's pretty much it I think.............the wheels are cool so I'll leave those. Just a few minor changes and you have a great car. SO COME ON GUYS , GIVE THE 996 A BREAK!

funny that this topic just came up i was going to write on something related. i just got done doing a 1300 mile road trip in a 996 c4 and i must say that as a street car, the 996 variant is a bad ass. great engine, great brakes, clean shifter, right amount of sound insulation vs. involvement. i must say that this car earned my respect over the course of the four days. now the bad part: i drove the same car at an auto-x about a month and a half ago and hated it. understeered like crazy, no throttle modulation could manuever the back end. numb power steering. squishy brakes etc. i guess the conclusion is that the 996 really is for hard driving and not for track use. now maybe with some suspension tuning, some pagid oranges, and the aforementioned sump mods and we'd have a different story. in the meantime, my 88 serves me just fine.

db

Exactly, they are great "luxury sports" but they are not at all close to the feel of the 993 and earlier cars. They are Lexus 996's, hey Lexus builds a wonderful car, I used to drive one... but Porsche needs to let them build them and get back to a true sports car design and philosophy.....not that Porsche gives a rats as@ about what I think...they have sales numbers to justify the Lexus 996.

In reference to the Wayne's original comment about one engine design for road cars and one for racing you might like to read this-
A guy here in the UK called Mark Sumpter was the first person in Europe (as far as a know) to race a privately owned 996 (back in 98). Porsche Cars Great Britain were against him racing a 996 from the start and in the end he had to source a car direct from a dealer in germany because 'none were available in the UK'!
Right from the outset he had major problems with oil surge during cornering and resorted to overfilling the engine with oil to ensure all the expensive bits inside didn't go bang. This was then followed at its fourth race by the alloy clutch housing breaking up allowing the trasmission to move away from the crankcase.
The following year a dry-sump system was made available by Porsche which cured the oil surge problems.
I've also heard stories of crankshafts twisting excessively, sometimes leading to complete failure.

Did Porsche Cars GB try to dissuade him from racing a 996 because they already knew the engine in the road car was a dud and would lead to some embarassing failures?? I would expect the greatest car manufacturer in the world to do better than that.

Take a look at the target audience.
 

The best insight into the mind of a car maker is the advertisements. Years ago I recall Porsche commercials showing all four wheels off the ground, hard exits from corners with the inside wheel lifted. Now what do you see:

A man who has been in a coma for 10 years being impressed by a Porsche. (that says something in and of itself).

A 996 impressing some traffic control engineers as it gently moves light to light.

A group of 996's catching napkins on the road.

and finally A 996 being substitued for a minivan to shuttle a child to school.

I'm not sure if Porsche has a bad slice or hook, but somewhere along the line their direction got very skewed.

Todd, I disagree on a couple of points:

You wrote,
"The market segment that the Porsche's of the past has aimed for is gone, the upper middle
and upper class segment buy SUVs far and wide, there is stiff and lower priced competition in
the sports car segment whereas in the past there was not."

There has always been stiff and lower priced competition in the sports car segment. Think
back to the fifties and sixties when Porsche was establishing itself. There were tons of sports
cars to be had, and the 356 and 911 were always priced higher than 90% of the competition.

A certain segment of high end car buyers buy a certain marque not because they know any-
thing about cars, but because they see "people in the know" ( enthusiasts ) buying them and
they latch on to the trend. Sort of automotive social climbing. I think that this is a big market
for the cars now. It's a car to be seen in, people will continue to buy them as long as they
think that they are cool. Unfortunately Porsche seems to be marketing to this group rather
than the enthusiast as they have in the past. Once the enthusiast stops buying it's only a
matter of time before the leeches drop off too.

What worries me about the situation is this, the people in the know ( us, right? ) have bought
Porsches in the past because they were incredible pieces of engineering that were closely
related and had a direct connection to what the factory was racing and winning with. I know
that I for one wanted to be part of it, to have that connection. I think that is what made the
mystique of Porsche. Once Porsche loses this mystique, which is happening now ( hence this
topic ) it will take a lot of effort and money to get " us " interested again by proving them-
selves in competition. That is if they want to, maybe a successful luxury car maker is all they
aspire to be now?

My other minor point Todd, is that it's Fiat not Ford that owns Ferrari. ;)

Exactly

The 993 was the last true PORSCHE. The M96 engine sucks. Someday they will get it right again. But who wants to lose all that depreciation on a new car anyway? My 87 911 will hold its value reasonably well. My 01 Boxster? It is a fun car, but it is REALLY gonna cost me!

Jack, Can you, (or anyone else), identify the cars on the left hand side of that ad? ("Racing is the ultimate test")

I do not recognize them as Porsches, and the top left one definitely pre-dates the company, (founded in 1948). That is a beautiful ad, they used to have the best ads. I would also like to know what the exact variants of the 917 and other car are. TIA. :cool:

Denis, the silver one mid left is the 4WD Cisitalia Type 360,
the bottom # 14 is the F1 car (Type 718?), the top left
I'm not sure. The white and red car in the middle is
a 908 long tail, # 12 a 908/3 Targa Florio car, & # 23
is the Elford/Attwater 917K Salzburg car. The silver car
mid bottom I think is an RS coupe or the GTL Carrera and
mid top I think is the W-RS Grossmutter hillclimb car.

I like the 996. A friend has an 2001 that I spent some time in at a slalom. For a street legal car with all the amenities, I was impressed by its grip and brakes. Yes, it does understeer, but I bet with some suspension tweeks that could be dialed out.

I thought I read somewhere Porsche is sending a street legal GT3 model our way this year. Now if this model has a motor similar in design to the race version, I bet some of you might change your tune.

Tinker

But if it did, it would be based around the 993 block, wouldn't it?

Thanks, Jim. They are all very beautiful. :cool:

The cars in the ad are (counter-clockwise from top left):
-191X Skala built by Ferdinand Porsche
-Auto Union? Cisitalia 4WD racer from the '30s?
-1962? 802? F1 car driven by Dan Gurney (he won some race)
-The next is either an Abarth-Carrera Coupe or a late '50s 718 Coupe (yes, they made one/a few of those!)
-A silver '73 911T/E/S Coupe
-A pre-'74 914
-Salzburg 917K 1970 LeMans winner
-Gulf 908/3 from 1969?
-The white car is a 917 Langheck('LH'; long-tail) from 1970-ish
-And, at the very top, close to the left, RS61 #718-047, called the W-RS Spyder and was nicknamed "Grossmutter"(Grandmother) because it just kept on getting modified. In 1963, they put the 771 flat-8 in it!

Those were the days! We will look back and the 996's will be a twinkle in the distance.

Indeed Wayne, the weakness of the 996 motor is well known. And I would agree that it is wet-sumped, however current Porsche marketing blurb describes it.

I can only sadly agree with many of the above comments. My view is that the good Dr's Ferry and Ferdinand are currently turning (about 7000rpm, I would say) in their graves, as the beancounters smash the design/engineering purity that made Porsche such a special company from it's inception until the mid-90's. Weideking seems to have conveniently forgotten this illustrious past, and the efforts of the brilliant and often fanatical engineers (especially Ferdinand Piech, in my view) who made it possible. I would love to ask Piech his views on this.

The real difference for me is that the 911 (to include 964 and 993) was designed, engineered and handbuilt to be as good a car as Porsche could make it, with a racing programme as an integral part of the development process. Then Porsche decided how much they could sell them for.

The 996 is automotive "white goods", reverse engineered for profitability from a marketplace price point. A very different exercise, though certainly one still requiring engineering expertise and design flair. The Boxster has more design flair, but is still a cynically compromised device.

It is indeed very much to be hoped that Porsche will hear the growing discord and protest from groups such as this, people who understand the design and engineering ethos that made Porsche great, and engineer the 997 as they did the 911. But sadly, I don't think this will happen. Only a few of the people who buy 996's/Boxster's are true enthusiasts, supporting Porsche regardless. So very many are in it for the kudos they percieve the Porsche marque to bring them.

As an industrial designer and engineer myself, I find Porsche's current marketing led approach abhorrent for a company which I once idolised.

I'll step off my soap box now....

I'll say it again..... LEXUS 996

Sadly, I agree with much of the above.


Does anyone have Wiedeking's e-mail address so we can post him this thread ????:D

..... our voice must be heard !!!

The Corvette went through a pretty dark period, but has been returning to a technology and performance leader once again.

Hopefully, Porsche will someday return to it's roots.

............We'll see........

Oh dont even get me started on the Vette!!! Fast, maybe.....good car..... Not so sure:rolleyes:

Well, Wiedeking will say if you want a proper 911 buy the Turbo or GT2,
That will earn Porsche more profits and you will get a better car with all the proper engineering same as always. It's a sneaky way of playing the game! Hopefully the depreciation will lead to lower priced used Turbos as well in about 5 years time.

While I also lament the direction that Porsche has taken with some, (most), of their current products, what I often hear on this board goes something like this: "Why can't they make/sell a very slightly updated version of the traditional 911, air-cooled, dry sump, dashboard that looks like '65-'89, never mind the cost, etc.,etc." Believe it or not, this was tried. It was called the 964, and by 1994 I think that they sold about 8 of them. Dealers closed by the dozens, and the company nearly went under.

I don't like the looks of the Boxter, and think that the 996 has too many compromises, but I see their strategy, (including the SUV), as drastic measures too stay afloat and independent. Obviously it has paid off for them beyond their wildest dreams up to this point, hard to say what will happen in coming years with an uncertain economy and ever changing fashions in car buying taste.

I firmly believe that if they had not radically altered their direction in the '90's, (and the much revered 993 was the begining of this cost-slashing), they would by now have changed hands more times than Rover. And be about as profitable, (Rover was sold for, what, $1.00 last time?). Just be glad that they ever made the cars that we love so much, and they made them for a LOOOOONG time. :cool:

"So it is true...... Porsche is dead." Excuse me while I lament in a dark closet for a few days.

Win a race sunday, sell a car monday.


Can't remember who said it.



The problem today is that Porsches marketing is pretty much based on the glory of yesterday (mostly achieved with aircooled cars) while the cars they sell right now can't live up to the glory. If they don't start racing (seriously) in the near future things will be embarrasing.

"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday", was an ad slogan of one of the Big 3, (GM, Ford or Chrysler), back in the late '50's or early '60's and refered to NASCAR. Sorry I can't remember which company. Not really very meaningful when you consider the lack of race technology in those (production) cars.

I am much more upset about the demise of Alfa Romeo in the U.S., Porsche is alive and well. They just don't sell 1989 Carreras any more. (Or 928s, or 944s, or 924s for that matter). :cool:

I truly believe that if every single one of us who has written to this thread and many similar threads wrote a concise letter to Porsche regarding our individual concerns they might start to listen.

You have to remember that they don't go scouring the websites looking for criticism of their product. Motoring journalists still praise the cars as best I can tell. Its the true fans that can wield the power if need be.

We all here are potential customers of Porsche, and as potential customers I think they might listen if we all start pointing out how lame the product is becoming, and increasing shareholder value in the short term and not tempering the long term honour of the company is going to cause a lot of problems for Porsche.

I personally want to start seeing it (Porsches) win Le Man again, they came very close to winning the Bathurst 24 Hour, they won the Nations Cup here in Australia (but they had very.. very stiff competition, its only because the driver Jim Richards is so good that they won), but they need to step up to the challenge of creating a factory racing that will put every other car manufacturer to shame again.

Yeah but how long will Porsche be alive and well using a marketing campaign that relies on the glory past of its racing prowess and appeals to a transient market - but how long will that work for?

The old head of marketing in my company who bought a Porsche 928 and then eventually a Boxster said he purchased them because they were a "life style" choice, he couldn't care about the engineering, they were simply a to be seen and look good in. And while we will always have drivers like that, once you lose the hard core fans, thinks will start to become dire...

The 996 is top of it's class at the moment as rated by the various magazine comparisons that have been published. There are faster cars and there are cheaper cars but that has always been the case throughout the 911's history.

A lot of you may not like the 996 but right here right now in 2003, what other NEW car would you get for similar money? BMW M3 - Too fat (200 kilos heavier), unreliable ( see http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3engines.htm) and ubiquitous. Jaguar XKR - too soft, too fat (400 kilos heavier) and auto only. Maserati - See Jag comments. Merc SL - See Jag comments. Corvette - Plllleeease. Ferrari 360 - Different price league.

Everyone should just wake up to the fact that it's 2003 not 1973. There are far tougher noise, pollution and safety regulations in place than anything dreamed about 30 years ago. The fact is, the 996 is bigger, faster, safer, more comfortable, more accomodating, lighter , more accelerative, better handling, cleaner and cheaper than the 993. Want a plusher interior? Just specify full leather. Want a sportier feel, just specify the factory sports exhaust and sports suspension. Want a pukka race engine - tick the box that says Gee Tee Three. Can't afford it - stop *****ing and work harder.

Porsches are the way they are now because that is waht the market expects and the biggest market for Porsches is the USA so if anyone is to blame its the USA. Porsche still makes products to cater for the true enthusiast and now that the GT3 is coming to the USA, perhaps some of the haters should try to hitch a ride. 3.6, 8000rpm, 380bhp, coilover suspension, 6 piston brakes, 190mph, no rear seats. It's big $$$ but as always, you gotta pay to play.

The 996 ads, have any of you guys noticed, depict teqiupment (whatever that is) and "Sport" exhuast pipes and goofy-looking wheels. Look at the 70s ads at the early 911S page and you will see the racing derivations. I remember one, "you find out what something's made of when the pressure is on," and it showed a SWB red 911 Coupe on the track. WHAT IS "BUTZI" (FA Porsche, the father of the 911) DOING TO STOP THIS? In european car when they interviewed Wiedrich or whatever his name is (the new CEO? of Porsche), he said that the "famed flat-six engine...is open to reinvention. :confused: And once, Ferry said something along the lines of (when asked about the rear-engine concept and air-cooling), "A radiator in the front and the engine in the back? You see, that is just poor engineering." Porsches were never poorly engineered. Why should they start now???