Interesting thing I learned about the 996 and the track last weekend...

[Wayne 962]

I learned this information while at the Jerry Woods / Bruce Anderson class last week. Let me start by saying I don't know too much about the 996 (or didn't until last week).

Here are some factoids:

- The 996 engine and Boxster engine are very similar, if not nearly identical
- The 996 engine is *not* raced by Porsche.
- The GT2/GT3 and SuperCup cars do not use the standard 996 watercooled block. They use a derivative of the 993 engine - a sort of 993 with water cooled heads and pistons.
- The engines used in the racing 996 is not the 996 engine, but in fact, this modified 993 engine.
- The most obvious difference is that the 996 engine is a wet-sump engine, and the 996 race cars are dry sump engines.
- The 996 Turbo uses this 993-based engine. It is not simply a turbo-charged NA 996 engine
- The GT2/GT3 is the same as above.
- Porsche does not race the 996/Boxster engine, nor do they sell the car in a race form with this engine (to the best of my knowledge).

Interesting stuff. My conclusion would be that the 996 engine is not really a race-worthy engine? Although putting out 300+ HP, it hasn't been endorsed by the factory for racing.

I'm sure this will incite some discussion...

-Wayne

[Jack Olsen]

Porsche Motorsports will modify the 996 oil system to be 'race-worthy,' but allowing them to do so will also (ironically) void the Porsche factory warranty on the car. Boxster owners who have put in claims for engines blown (on the track) under warranty, have been told that track use is not considered normal use and is not covered.

[eion]

Originally posted by JackOlsen
have been told that track use is not considered normal use

It's a sad day indeed when Porsche don't consider it normal for their cars to be driven on the track...

[Bill Douglas]

Oh yes, definitely a turning point for the company. No longer can they be thought of as race cars made street legal.

Also it makes the 993 engine (and it's variations) look like one of the very best ever 911 engines if they are using it as their preference over the later engine types.

[Wayne 962]

There are still a lot of problems with the 993 engine though...

-Wayne

[930fan]

[i]
Interesting stuff. My conclusion would be that the 996 engine is not really a race-worthy engine? Although putting out 300+ HP, it hasn't been endorsed by the factory for racing.

I'm sure this will incite some discussion...

-Wayne [/B]

I don't think the 996 engine is that bad. It's just that the factory already has the 993 based architecture so well developed after all these years it probably makes more sense to use that. The 993 based engines have a lot more exotic design components and metals which make them more suitable for racing but less suitable for the bottom line.

In terms of horsepower per litre, the 996 3.4 is better even than a 993 RS while being quieter, cleaner and more economical. I'd think that most other manufacturers would be very pleased to have that engine in their line up.

[Jim Richards]

There are still a lot of problems with the 993 engine though...

Wayne, I'm curious, what problems are you referring to? Thanks!

[JEB]

Just as an aside, can someone explain to me the difference between wet and dry sump? I have never understood this.

Thanks,
Jeb
'79 930

[Tim Walsh]

A wet sump is referring to an oil system where all the oil drains to the bottom of the engine and then stays there. It goes directly from the bottom of the engine into the rest of the oil system.

A "dry" sump is an oil system where the oil draining to the bottom of the engine is picked up and put into a separate tank.

I'm just guessing here but I think that the advantages of a dry sump over a wet one is that under heavy acceleration (both in the left-right and forward-back directions) the oil is not sloshed as much, guaranteeing an even, constant supply of oil. With a wet sump there's also the possibility for a large amount of oil to hit the crank and possibly giving poor performance from the extra friction. I would think that internal combustion engine’s that run at extreme angles, such as serious 4 wheel drive trucks need a dry sump to avoid having a lot of oil slosh into pistons.

A dry sump also lets an engine have more oil in it's system than what could but with a wet sump. There's no way you could get 12 quarts of oil in a chevy smallblock and have it run, but our dry sumped 911 engines take that much and they're overall a much smaller engine.

The wet sump on the other hand is cheaper to manufacture since it doesn't require a separate tank and a second pump.

note: a "dry" sump is never really dry, there's almost always going to be at least a little bit of oil in the bottom.

just my slightly educated 2 cents

[s_wilwerding]

Originally posted by JEB
Just as an aside, can someone explain to me the difference between wet and dry sump? I have never understood this.

Thanks,
Jeb
'79 930

Wet sump is what most cars have, in that the oil sits in the bottom (sump) of the engine. Dry sump means that the car has an external oil tank (like older 911s). Dry sump is considered better for racing because at high lateral G-forces, the oil in a wet sump system may be pushed to the sides of the engine and the oil pickup in the sump will not have a sufficient amount of oil to circulate through the engine. Dry sump also minimizes frothing and aeration of the oil.

I think that perhaps Wayne is confused. I think 996 and Boxster engines use an integrated dry sump system, which seems like a wet sump, but is really just a large oil tank at the bottom of the engine.

[Wil Ferch]

Wayne:
This shouldn't be all that surprising. When the 996 articles first appeared, this was a well-documented fact of how the 996 architecture is *not* the basis for the racing or Turbo versions of the 996. A quick way to tell is that the "old" ( race-worthy) design has the cam drives on the same side of the engine, near thje back of the car ( left and right bank), whereas the "street" versions, for sake of manufacturing similarity, will have one bank driven near the back-end of the engine, and the other bank driven near the firewall end of the engine.

Also..the street 996 is considered to be "semi" dry-sump...essentially a blend of the two styles with the "tank" incorporated with the engine, and not mounted to the chassis with external rubber oil lines...as were the 911/993 series.

This point of newer Porsche's not being as race worthy goes further. In the past, street cars and racing versions used Mahle pistons, Recaro seats, dry-sump oiling, etc etc...whereas now only the Cup or racing cars use these premium products....street cars seats are made by Lear-Seigler ( makers of the Pontiac Trans-Am seats !), shocks by Monroe ( not Bilstein or Koni), wet or semi-dry sump oiling ( not pure dry sump), Lucas ( ! ) not Bosch power brake boosters....yep, no wonder they're the most profitable car maker on the planet. They're cashing-in on the old-way "image" ,.. yet they're building Japanese cars at German prices They may work better in some cases...but the deep-to-the-bones craftsmanship and premium pieces are no longer there. When I park my 1990 Eagle Talon ( Mitsu Eclipse) next to a new generation 996, I don't see much difference in the build philosophy, nor in the interior materials/design, either. Only the Talon didn't cost $70K.

Thank God I've still got my 85 Carrera !
---Wil Ferch

[Randy W]

I'm sorry to say I agree with you Will. I will not buy a 996 for myself because of the facts you list, and because I don't like the way it looks either. The Boxster at least looks good in dark colors with the hardtop on. I said it before and it seems like it may ring truer now ... Porsche sold its soul to feed its greed. Good thing they built some cars that seem to last forever...

[tkrefeld]

Will, I agree with you and think I am going to be sick...

[widebody911]

So if one takes their new Cryin' to the Rubicon, does it void the warranty?

[silverc4s]

I agree that the 993 was the last real 911 variant... I would not be interested in a standard 996; a GT2 however, hmmmmm...

ps. Dry sump also allows for a lower center of gravity, a big consideration when the original design was done. Just compare the 911's motor location to any other standard road vehicle, and you can see that the mass is amazingly low down.

[beepbeep]

Thom:

Amazinly, YES! Fitting slicks on your C2 and taking it to the auto-X will void your engine warranty...Feel free to call dealer and ask. It's sick...

Lucas as brake-booster subcontractor? Lucas as "Lucas the inventor of darkness"??? Lucas as "english car electricals Lucas"?

[tkrefeld]

Yea, remember the early Lotus ' with massive electrical problems....??

Electrical by Lucas

[rattlsnak]

>>Boxster owners who have put in claims for engines blown (on the track) under warranty, have been told that track use is not considered normal use and is not covered<<

Who was STUPID enough to tell the dealer that they blew up their motor on the track?

[tkrefeld]

Used to be if something broke it went back to the dealer, and they would be happy to repair. Wanted to keep you as a customer, keep you happy and coming back ect. Now, there is NO Customer Service. They DO NOT care about us, and if they are nice it's bacuase they are worried about keeping their job. If they can't MAKE $5000 + profit off of you, they will happily show you the double wide door(won't even as much as escort you there anymore). This was an exerp from another current thread...



True, but that is why prices keep going up....or so it should be...

Vehicles have become cheaper quality, and even borderline junk right off the lot, last 1/3 as long as they used to, and cost 4X as much....
Then the companies say they have strict emissions, environment ect to conform too. Ok, that will cost some more money, but that is what the cost cutting was suppossed to be for. It's all BS, and all about bottom line and profits. Companies using their past success and their "name" to sell cars. It is rediculous but everyone buys into it, so it will continue. It's US consumerism, and the reason the economy even now is so much better than in other conuntries is because of it. Buy, buy, buy. Consume consume, throw away and buy more, It is at it's peak for the highly image conscious. I just bought a new $40000 SUV which has orange peel, broken interior parts, and an oil pressure problem. It's disgusting and will not change unless a large amount of "old schoolers" do something about it.

[Nickshu]

Originally posted by rattlsnak
Who was STUPID enough to tell the dealer that they blew up their motor on the track?

I can hear it now. "I was....um....just driving my daugher to school....and.....um....I heard this terrible noise.....and.....uhhh....it just....uhh....started.....smoking....yeah, yeah thats it....it was really black smoke.

Nick.