Another reason original, pre-996 911s run dry sump oil systems is that it allows the engine to be mounted lower in the car, the benefits being a lower centre of gravity and better handling!

Yeah, Adam, the low mounting of the engine also allowed that distinctive rear end design to be possible, too.

Gotta chime in here...

The quote

"I said it before and it seems like it may ring truer now ... Porsche sold its soul to feed its greed. Good thing they built some cars that seem to last forever..."

is what really got my attention. As much as one would like to blame Porsche's supposed greed, we should really look at the marketplace and competition. The market segment that the Porsche's of the past has aimed for is gone, the upper middle and upper class segment buy SUVs far and wide, there is stiff and lower priced competition in the sports car segment whereas in the past there was not. Almost all of Porsche's peers have been bought (Ferrari is owned by Ford? Who would've believed that 10 years ago?).

To stay independent, Porsche has had to make concessions to the marketplace. A lot of people felt/feel the Boxter was not a true Porsche. It's also the car that may have saved the company. The Cayenne is Porsches answer to a market that demands SUVs over sports cars. It is as much a Porsche as any model before it, responding to a market that watches football instead of F1 (or even NASCAR), that has kids earlier in life, that sees big as more important than fast, that sits in traffic, that is obese...

I think that true corporate greed would be to give up and simply be bought out. The sheer determination Porsche has shown to remain one of the very last indepedent marques reveals to me that they have as much passion and courage as ever.

Having said all that, I really enjoy hearing everyone's take on the whole subject not only from a drivers perspective but from an business perspective as well!

(running to take cover)

Moroso and several other companies make the pumps, tanks and lines to convert most engines to dry sump. In fact any engine can be converted but in some cases you'd have to do some fabrication yourself. Dry sump oiling is simply one or more scavenge stages and a presure stage, the scavenge stage sucks the oil and blowby from the crankcase to the oil tank where it is de-aireated then pumped to the pressure gallerys by the pressure stage of the pump. It's used in many forms of racing for multides of reasons like lower CG, crankcase windage, more oil compacity, steady oil supply and pressure under high G applications etc. In fact it is a safety requirement on top fuel drag cars since those cars experience so much cylinder washdown from the nitro-methane that the oil becomes an explosive slush. Top fuel cars also run a secondary pressure system to support the tremendous crank bearing loads that 8000+ HP creates, they use compressed CO2 at 3000 psi to pressurize the crankshaft oil gallery so that the bearings are supported properly by a thin film of oil. All of these aftermarket dry sump systems incorporate an external multi-stage pump driven usually by the crankshaft and typically consist of two scavenge stages with one pressure stage. having said all that Porsche could easily convert the 996 engine to dry sump but why would they? I mean when they already have a proven design with an internal pump it makes little sense to reinvent the wheel. The fact remains that most grassroots race cars don't have dry sump oiling because they really don't need it, not with all the tricks that can be incorporated to a wet sump system for excellent oil control including windage trays, crank scrapers, baffled deep-sump pans, oil gallery restrictors, and high volume pumps.

Oh well enough babbling. ;)

Duck Todd! :D
If Porsche wanted to stay independent so they could continue to produce quality automobiles and go racing that would be one thing. I don't really see that happening. Are any of the formerly independant car companies worse off now? I don't follow racing but aren't those companies (Alfa, Bentley, Ferrari, Jaguar, Volvo, etc) still racing or racing again? Are they producing better cars? [With the exception of the rebadged Ford JagX.]
Do you think if Audi owned Porsche that the interior materials would be at least as nice as an Audi's? Do you think they would be racing?
-Chris

How can leather NOT be standard equipment on an $80, xxx car? Audi A4 3.0's come with leather standard, and wood and it looks very palatable. If you really think of it, where did they put that much money? I rode in a new ('03) BMW 745 (BTW, I am not comparing it to a 996 other than in price) and it has very nice leather, it had rear seat adjustments, heated seats for all, navigation, it had a little drink refrigerator in the middle front console (!), it has big honkin' wheels, a fairly stiff yet very compliant suspension. It has 330hp as I recall and it hauls ass. The brakes do too. It has more gadgets and gizmos than I even know to think about. It had tiny holes in the seats with little fans behind so that when you turn on the A/C, it comes through the seats! Its styling is nice (IMHO) and they don't ask you whether you want to order "footwell lighting" for an additional $600 or "Porsche crest in headrests" for $300 or a $3,xxx leather package. Doesn't an M3 absolutely waste a 996? For $30,xxx less? If you don't need character (which older 911s have a lot of), why would there be any question when looking for a new sports car? Z06=405HP. You can't see the orange peel or the plasticky interior when you're rocketing up an onramp--you just feel the rush! 993s and all Porsches prior to it are in their own league; they are (still) untouchable as my favorite sportscar, no matter how fast the new ones become. Cayenne? BAHHH. What kind of *****head would name a car after a spice? It's like bringing out the new "Paprika" V8 or something. Porsche should have named it that: "Porsche Paprika V8". It has a nice ring to it...

Scott, you're spot on!

Unfortunately, they're just chasing profits and it seems they're cutting corners as they go. A friend of mine (who posts here occasionally), his father bought a new 2002 996 Tiptronic. Within 1500 miles from new, and after TWO REBUILDS his engine was declared legally dead and Porsche took the car back and are in the process of giving him a brand new car. It hadn't even been fully run-in. They're keen for him to keep quiet about it, but it has certainly shattered his confidence in the brand.

He has since lusted after a new M3 (but he won't after we show him the 120+ cars that have rod failures and BMW are reluctant to fix them under warranty!) So, he's awaiting his new 996 (which will be an '03 build) at no cost, but is worried about a repeat performance. His old car, now with only 1700 miles on the clock, is sitting on the yard at the dealers, being offered to the uninformed masses as a "Demonstrator". Let's face it, who goes in to buy a near-new 996, expecting the motor's been through two rebuilds!? I work in the motor trade and I believe disclosure is the cornerstone of true integrity. Porsche seem to have misplaced theirs. :rolleyes:

Why is it sad. Things evolve, and as such so has motor racing. Its no longer the semi-amatuer sport that it once was, nor are the cars.

I think that a lot of it has to do with the changing nature of the automotive industry. Porsche is selling more cars than it has ever done, but not to the same type of people.

Why engineer a vehicle to be robust enough off the shelf to cope with the stress of motor racing when 90% of people purchasing the cars have no intention of doing that.

Where as 20 years ago, maybe 40% of people buying Porsches would take them to the track, Porsche now offers that 10% market specific cars for racing.

Yes, I know Porsche have always been doing this (the Carrera RS through to the GT1) but the question of economics is now to the point that while they still create a wonderful automobile for the masses of people that want excellent street performance (and have the wallet to match). Those interested in racing cars are going to purchase race specific vehicles.

>>Boxster owners who have put in claims for engines blown (on the track) under warranty, have been told that track use is not considered normal use and is not covered<<

Who was STUPID enough to tell the dealer that they blew up their motor on the track?


They don't have too. I was told the computer (OBDII?) constantly stores the engine RPM and road speeds over a set period of time. When you bring in your new 996 with a blown motor, the tech at the dealer is going to download this info. If it shows an average elevated RPM and road speed for the period preceeding the "event"........guess your SOL.

It's a brave new world....

Tinker

Of course the easy way around that is to either clear the computer or buy another one and leave the original at home until you need it. ;)

I will never buy a 996. To me I substitute the words 'drive hard' for racing. I've always driven my car hard, but never harsh. Other than the fact that the period is extended, the car doesn't know whether its on the track or on the street. With that said, the 996 is obviously built to be at the upper limit of its design criteria when driven hard, otherwise why void the warranty. The 993 and earlier Porsche's, designed to be raced first and foremost, are well within their design criteria when driven hard. To me this means the engine and suspension wear on the 996 will be greater, and future 996 owners will have to be concerned about where in that design envelope a particular car spent time.

This also means the value of the 996 will drop drastically when it is out of warranty. When searching for a good used car over 5 years old, most owners are concerned about reliability. Worrying what will happen if they push the car for an extended period is a condition I can avoid by avoiding the 996. Besides, in ten years, will a buyer want to purchase a '98 993 or a '99 996. The warranty issue will be a moot point but the reliability will not. This whole period of the mid to late nineties for Porsche will be compared to the Worldcom/Enron greed; same basis for decisions, different industry.

Hey let's not be so hard on the 996 ... it isn't fair. It's really a pretty good car, although if given the choice I might consider changing a couple things: front bumper design, front fender design, oh..oh..and the hood as well. Thats all I would change...... oh and the rear quarters, I would probably change those....and if I'm changing those I might as well modify the rear bumper and deck lid and change the flow of the roof line just to finish it off. Of course the interior would be tweaked a bit, nothing more than replacing the dash, door panels, seats...etc... Oh...and a fan..yeah a fan. I need that fan sound, but it would be a waiste to put a fan on a water cooled boxer so I think I will go ahead and replace it with a 993 plant. That's pretty much it I think.............the wheels are cool so I'll leave those. Just a few minor changes and you have a great car. SO COME ON GUYS , GIVE THE 996 A BREAK!

funny that this topic just came up i was going to write on something related. i just got done doing a 1300 mile road trip in a 996 c4 and i must say that as a street car, the 996 variant is a bad ass. great engine, great brakes, clean shifter, right amount of sound insulation vs. involvement. i must say that this car earned my respect over the course of the four days. now the bad part: i drove the same car at an auto-x about a month and a half ago and hated it. understeered like crazy, no throttle modulation could manuever the back end. numb power steering. squishy brakes etc. i guess the conclusion is that the 996 really is for hard driving and not for track use. now maybe with some suspension tuning, some pagid oranges, and the aforementioned sump mods and we'd have a different story. in the meantime, my 88 serves me just fine.

db

Exactly, they are great "luxury sports" but they are not at all close to the feel of the 993 and earlier cars. They are Lexus 996's, hey Lexus builds a wonderful car, I used to drive one... but Porsche needs to let them build them and get back to a true sports car design and philosophy.....not that Porsche gives a rats as@ about what I think...they have sales numbers to justify the Lexus 996.

In reference to the Wayne's original comment about one engine design for road cars and one for racing you might like to read this-
A guy here in the UK called Mark Sumpter was the first person in Europe (as far as a know) to race a privately owned 996 (back in 98). Porsche Cars Great Britain were against him racing a 996 from the start and in the end he had to source a car direct from a dealer in germany because 'none were available in the UK'!
Right from the outset he had major problems with oil surge during cornering and resorted to overfilling the engine with oil to ensure all the expensive bits inside didn't go bang. This was then followed at its fourth race by the alloy clutch housing breaking up allowing the trasmission to move away from the crankcase.
The following year a dry-sump system was made available by Porsche which cured the oil surge problems.
I've also heard stories of crankshafts twisting excessively, sometimes leading to complete failure.

Did Porsche Cars GB try to dissuade him from racing a 996 because they already knew the engine in the road car was a dud and would lead to some embarassing failures?? I would expect the greatest car manufacturer in the world to do better than that.

Take a look at the target audience.
 

The best insight into the mind of a car maker is the advertisements. Years ago I recall Porsche commercials showing all four wheels off the ground, hard exits from corners with the inside wheel lifted. Now what do you see:

A man who has been in a coma for 10 years being impressed by a Porsche. (that says something in and of itself).

A 996 impressing some traffic control engineers as it gently moves light to light.

A group of 996's catching napkins on the road.

and finally A 996 being substitued for a minivan to shuttle a child to school.

I'm not sure if Porsche has a bad slice or hook, but somewhere along the line their direction got very skewed.

Todd, I disagree on a couple of points:

You wrote,
"The market segment that the Porsche's of the past has aimed for is gone, the upper middle
and upper class segment buy SUVs far and wide, there is stiff and lower priced competition in
the sports car segment whereas in the past there was not."

There has always been stiff and lower priced competition in the sports car segment. Think
back to the fifties and sixties when Porsche was establishing itself. There were tons of sports
cars to be had, and the 356 and 911 were always priced higher than 90% of the competition.

A certain segment of high end car buyers buy a certain marque not because they know any-
thing about cars, but because they see "people in the know" ( enthusiasts ) buying them and
they latch on to the trend. Sort of automotive social climbing. I think that this is a big market
for the cars now. It's a car to be seen in, people will continue to buy them as long as they
think that they are cool. Unfortunately Porsche seems to be marketing to this group rather
than the enthusiast as they have in the past. Once the enthusiast stops buying it's only a
matter of time before the leeches drop off too.

What worries me about the situation is this, the people in the know ( us, right? ) have bought
Porsches in the past because they were incredible pieces of engineering that were closely
related and had a direct connection to what the factory was racing and winning with. I know
that I for one wanted to be part of it, to have that connection. I think that is what made the
mystique of Porsche. Once Porsche loses this mystique, which is happening now ( hence this
topic ) it will take a lot of effort and money to get " us " interested again by proving them-
selves in competition. That is if they want to, maybe a successful luxury car maker is all they
aspire to be now?

My other minor point Todd, is that it's Fiat not Ford that owns Ferrari. ;)

Exactly

The 993 was the last true PORSCHE. The M96 engine sucks. Someday they will get it right again. But who wants to lose all that depreciation on a new car anyway? My 87 911 will hold its value reasonably well. My 01 Boxster? It is a fun car, but it is REALLY gonna cost me!