Motor build advice please...

[Hetmann]

1978 SC with original 3.0 engine. Last oil change we saw metal shavings in the oil filter. Time for a rebuild. I don't want to tackle that myself. It's a little more advanced than I am prepared to take on. Wrench tells me rebuild is in the $6K to $9K range. Motor alledgedly has 83K miles on it. I have service records going back for several years, but am missing some from first owner.

The engine is torn apart now and I have seen that indeed the bearings show wear and one rod bearing was pretty shot. Wrench tells me it looks like a high mileage engine to him.

This week I get his estimate. I am astounded! It's all broken out, but if I go the deluxe path we are talking over $14K.
This includes new P/Cs, hotter cams, raceware studs, new oil cooler... the works. What items can I defer? What items wouldn't you scrimp on?

I will be going in to go over the estimate in detail after the 1st and want to have a better idea of what to leave in and what to take out.

Does anyone know a source for 3.2 P/Cs that will fit my case?

[5axis]

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_engine_rebuild/911_engine_rebuild1.htm


I am sure many of the SCWDP will be able to offer specifics.
Superman should be able to help out with the cheapskate part
He recently did a shoestring rebuild and got a nice performance bump.
Search around a bit . A lot of info is at your fingertips.

PS Buy Waynes 911 Books.(sucking up is all in the timing)

[Superman]

I am working hard on a reputation for being the biggest cheapskate on The Board. Just got my welded crossmember back from the welding shop. The bill was higher than I thought, but oh well. It was $21 and some change.

I'd probably disagree with your conclusion that a home rebuild is out of your league. These engines are just not that complicated. They are among the simplest systems on our cars. And the further into the engine you get, the less parts are there.

At any rate, I think $14k for an SC engine rebuild is about double the maximum price I would pay (in addition to engine R&R), including P&Cs. If your engine has that few miles, your P&Cs are probably near new. I would not hesitate to reuse them, assuming they measure up. Measure the crank also. If it is bad, find a good used one. Do not machine the crank. Valves should be looked at and renewed if necessary. Not a bad idea.

If I mic'd the crank and discovered that the metal shavings came from the bad rod bearing, and if I knew that the other parts are fine (crank, rods, pistons, sprockets, etc.), I'd recondition the rods and perhaps the rocker shafts, and just put it all together and go. Total cost would be closer to $1500.

Another GREAT idea is to find a set of gently used P&Cs from a later SC, with 9.3:1 compression. These P&Cs would make your car very quick. I also LOVE the 20/21 cams in put in my engine. 964 cams also work very well, I am told.

Do this, or bend over.

[scoll911]

I finished the rebuild on my 78 3.0 about four months ago -- The tab came to about $7,000. This included buying a used crank, P/Cs, (inside was a mess) and having a distributer built (the used crank had a gear which rotated the wrong direction not noticed until to late). In addition, I didn't scrimp on machining parts and I replaced with new all bearing and what not.

I performed most of the so-called easy labor (engine drop, dismantle and work not requiring special tools, etc.), this probably saved a ton.

With regard to used P/Cs, I bought my used parts from a number of including Vertex in Miami, 20th Street Auto in AZ and Ollies machining in CA. (I figure since we are talking used, it is ok to mention competitors).

If you need the names of other used parts places, let me know.

Steve

[JeremyD]

How about trying to find a decent used 3.0 or 3.2 L engine with low miles? I know there is a piece of mind that comes with knowing you did the rebuild - but damn, that's some serious jack.

[Jbabic]

I just rebuilts mine about a year ago and cost only 4k, and yes I did it myself. It is a pretty simple engine. if you have any mechanical skills, you should be able to do this. the money save or pent on labor rates can buy all the tools you will need.

but 12k....hell the car isn't worth that much....unless its real clean!!!

[nostatic]

I think the head studs are a must-do (although you don't have to spring for Racewares). Everything else would be need-to-replace basis. Doesn't sound like an 83K motor though unless the PO abused it.

[masraum]

I would post the itemized list of parts/labor that you have just to see what the others think. They may notice where/what the cost seems to be coming from and why/where it's so high.

[Superman]

Yeah, for $14k or $12k, you can put a 3.6L engine in that car. I know you have some sunk costs, but if it were me, I'd pay the mechanic off, take those parts home and finish the rebuild myself. If the crank is okay, and if you do not need new P&Cs, then your rebuild will not be very expensive at all. A few hundred dollars would probably get you a nice used set of 9.3:1 P&Cs.

[ChrisBennet]

Once Wayne's book is available I think rebuilding a 911 motor will be a lot easier. Like a lot of things, the more I learn about this subject the more I realize how much I have to learn. You do your first motor and you think "well that wasn't too bad". Later when you've done a few more and you realize that you were lucky. I'm not trying to scare you off, I just want to make clear that this is a project where knowledge and attention to detail really matters.

The money you spend on tools an books will really be worth it.

Once you get metal into the oiling system you have a bit harder and more expensive job on your hands. Everything in the lubrication system must be taken apart and cleaned. BTDT.

The engine oil cooler will need to be ultrasonically cleaned. I've used Pacific Oil Cooler to clean mine. They are FAA certified. If you have a later type radiator style oil cooler up front, that will need the same treatment. I think you could have someone local with a hot tank rinse out a trumbone cooler. Ask someone more knowledgable than me on that one.
The oil gallery plugs in the motor need to be removed and the insides all cleaned out. New plugs need to be made and reinstalled.
Clean the crank oiling passages and cam spray bars thoroughly.
Test the piston squirters and cam spray bars. You would normally do this anyway but if the cam spray bar squirters are plugged you will probably want to remove the spray bars and clean them.
The thermostats and oil pump should also be diassembled and cleaned.
Lots or work but all it takes is one little bit of metal to plug something and you'll be tearing it apart again.

"Does anyone know a source for 3.2 P/Cs that will fit my case?"
By "3.2" do you mean ones from a later 3.2L motor or ones that will bump your displacement up to 3.2L? The SC 3.0L motor and '84-89 3.2L motors have the same bore (95mm). To bump your displacement to 3.2L you can go with 98mm Mahle P&C's or bored out and recondition cylinders and JE pistons. I've done the latter for my own motor.

-Chris

[Kevin Stewart]

pbs has a 3.0 for sale for 4K, im doing a 3.6 conversion, it will come in under 10k, Kevin

[Wayne 962]

Dude, you gotta get the preview edition:

http://www.101projects.com/rebuild.htm

I guarantee it will save you $1000s. Guaranteed!

-Wayne

[Hetmann]

Thanks for all your replies. You guys are great. I have been reading voraciously and do have Wayne's 101 project book as well as several others. I am waiting for the published version of the engine book.

I have the estimate in front of me now and the basic assumption is that we will replace everything. In talking with my wrench, he says that my P/Cs measure within spec and can be reused. He would prefer not to because the honing marks in the cylinders are worn down. Is this cause to worry?

Two big items I am crossing off the list are a new oil cooler and hotter cams. I will persue cleaning my oil cooler ultrasonically. Thanks for the tip. My wrench didn't want to reuse it because of the metal particles and didn't feel he could clean it out well enough. Apparently he doesn't know about ultrasonic cleaning. My cams are fine and this is a street car.

I am hesitant to just bring everything home and do it myself because I probably will take forever given my other commitments and there is a good chance I would screw it up. Maybe I'll try this on a 4 cylinder motor first. Spyder replica???

I will be meeting with my technician early next week and going through this list very carefully. If you have any other suggestions please send them my way.

[Doug E]

$14k ????

Here's another alternative: buy a 3.0 replacement motor for around $5k and then spend the other $4k on other upgrades to the rest of the car.

[Superman]

My P&Cs were within spec too, and I reused them. That was at 182K miles. The rings seated just fine. To this day, I believe it was critical to get the cylinders cleaned up properly. Mine were washed in an aluminum-friendly parts washer, something like a huge dishwasher. This took the glaze completely off the business surface, and I believe allowed the rings to bite.

I suggested considering a used set of late-SC P&Cs and I'll suggest that again. Your engine has bigger intake runners, more robust fuel distributor and enlarged intake ports, compared to my late SC. But my late SC has the higher compression pistons to make up for it. Combine these fine features and you get a very lively car. I'm also strongly suggesting the cam upgrade. Makes the car torquier and easier to drive. And more fun.

Finally, I don't want to cast aspersions toward your mechanic, but if he is not familiar with ultrasonic oil cooler cleaning, then he's likely to miss things like inspecting the cylinder heads to make sure they have not been hammering on the cylinder tops. It is not easy to tell. You need a magnifying glass, and the heads must be cleaned first. If that is the case, then they can be flycut.

You have quite a few options.

[dean]

Have you thought of putting in an updated motor? Bill V has one for sale and I bet you could do it yourself. I believe that it would cost you less than $14k.

[47silver]

14k seems very high.
1. a used motor could be had for 5k or so. you save 9k and can take the time to rebuild your current motor while still be able to enjoy the car in fact you could probably build one nice motor yourself for 9k.
2. you could plug in a newer 3.6 for about 10k and again save about 4 to redo your current motor (economically) when you have time while still enjoying the car.
3. what kind of warranty would you get at the 14k price?

[surflvr911sc]

Originally posted by 47silver
14k seems very high.
1. a used motor could be had for 5k or so. you save 9k and can take the time to rebuild your current motor while still be able to enjoy the car in fact you could probably build one nice motor yourself for 9k.
2. you could plug in a newer 3.6 for about 10k and again save about 4 to redo your current motor (economically) when you have time while still enjoying the car.
3. what kind of warranty would you get at the 14k price?

Bill V's motor is a 3.6