87 911 coupe value

[einreb]

ok... I'm a few weeks into my 87-88 911 search and I've stumbled upon a pretty nice car at what I think is a high price. What I would like to do is establish a fair value to offer the guy.

Heres the car....

87 911 coupe with 48000 miles, silver w/black int
repaint (no obvious wreck damage), but not a very good job, one bad paint spot on hood, scuff on fender, scuff on rear (suv bumper level)
most repair records, recent calipers on front, valve job, 45k service.
recent A/C recharge, returl oil line, front tie rod, alignment

no record of new clutch... likely due soon
sunroof doesnt open, hear motor, moves a bit(off a track?)
passenger window very slow when wet.

nice interior condition
tires in decent shape

the fella is asking 23.5k for the car. is under 20k a fair price for the car? 19k if in needs the clutch? or is the bad paint/windows sunroof put it even lower?

Bruce Andersens column in porsche excellence had good condition 87's going for 18k i think... but that seems low. I would appreciate any comments or thoughts.

Thanks

[Rick Lee]

It depends on where you live. $23.5 sounds a bit high for this economy. Get that PPI and deduct the needed repairs costs from the price. Unless you're dying to do those repairs yourself, a G50 clutch update will run you well over $1000 in a shop. You can DIY it for well under $1000.

[einreb]

i agree with the 23.5 being high and deducting the ppi results from the cost... the problem is coming up with the cost to start deducting from.

i sort of wonder where the 'surveys' that come up with 18k for a 'good' 87 find these cars.

[Milu]

Seems pricy for a US car.
But it sounds like the basis for a nice car.
Establish what you need to spend to sort it and decide on a price you'd be prepared to offer to have that car.
The advice/opinion I would offer is that there are lots of cars out there, just don't end up spending a FORTUNE trying to get your ideal car at the bargain basement price.

[Rick Lee]

OK, start by assuming $23.5k is a good price for an excellent car. Hell, I'd pay it. Excellent examples of G50 Carrera coupes don't grow on trees these days. Fixing the paint job would probably be a deal killer for the seller, as a strip and respray ain't cheap - min. $3k-$5k. If the clutch hasn't been updated, you have that coming someday - maybe tomorrow, maybe in 5 yrs. But if it's not making binding noises, then you have a while to go. I got 82.5k miles on my original G50 clutch. The seller probably won't come down to $18k. So see if you can get the stuff that really needs attention done for an amount that he would agree to knock off the price. I don't think fixing the sunroof and window motor would be all that expensive.

[PeteBrown]

For a car that has been poorly reprayed and has a number of things broken or not operating correctly, its definitely not worth $23.5k. For reference:

I bought an '87 Coupe, Black with a Gray/Green interior with heated sport seats, sunroof, front and rear spoiler and an upgraded stereo/cd player about 4 years ago for less than that asking price. My car had 56k mi and came with no records. Everything worked but the A/C needed a charge and there were a few return tube leaks. Paint was original and in great shape with some stone chips on the front hood, bumper and valence. Clutch was also original.

Over the last 3.5 years I have replaced the return tubes, two oil lines to the thermostate, recharged the a/c twice (every other year) had a 60k service completed, replaced the battery, changed the oil twice a year, changed tranny fluid once, replaced two sets of front rotors, and added all new pads. 10k mi later and 10 DEs later, the car runs perfectly and still has its original clutch.

Take the car to a Porsche dealer for PPI and have them list everything that needs to be replaced. Then take the $5,000 + estimate to the owner to negotiate a lower price.

[Milu]

The following is my amateur opinion based on my own personal theories on 911 values, it is pseudo science and not advice!

See if it works for you and let me know.

As a mathematical calculation how about half the value of a new 996 less the costs of the body and mechanical work needed to be completed by a dealer?

[don911]

Hmm...IMHO, 23.5K sound too high to me for the car described. For that $$ and today's market, it better be a very nice car. Even a couple of years ago when the market was good, $23.5 would get you a very nice 87.

What do you mean by valve job? Top end rebuild or valve adjustment?
If the motor is decent, the other items can probably be fixed yourself. (excluding clutch and paint) A bad repaint always makes me run but that's just me. Repainting is very expensive and for me, it would drop the value a bunch. I'm also leary of cars where the owner didn't fix the little things as they came up. To me it indicates neglect and I wonder about all the other maintenance that was never done. I wouldn't rate this car as "good" condition. If a very thurough PPI is done, $18K is the most I would give. Actually, I wouldn't buy this car. In todays market, you should be able to get a very nice 87-89 for less than $20K.

[speeder]

It sounds like about a $13,000 car from your description, $5-6k minimum to make nice, (including complete repaint). For common production cars such as these, ebay and other online sites are a good market indicator. $18-19k seems to buy a nice one at the moment.

[einreb]

ok.. so it looks like high teens minus the mechanical fixes.

I'm not trying to save every last penny, but i would like to get a car at a decent price... i suspect that the bad paint is a pretty big price issue. the nice thing about that is that it doesn't really bother me, so it means a car i'm happy with for a bit less $.

[silverc4s]

If you want a factory quality paint job done on a 911, last time I looked in San Jose, CA there were only 3 places that had the reputation to do it. All were in the 10K plus any bodywork and rubber replacement range for a metallic paint job...YMMV

[JeremyD]

Yes, 23.5 is definitely high.

Why do you need a new clutch? Is it slipping? Mine (1987 Cabriolet) has 44,000 miles and it's miles away from needing a new clutch. Guess it depends on how it is driven.

For reference purpose only - December 20 I picked up my new car (to me) 1987 Diamond Blue Cabriolet. Small hole in the top - curb rash under real valence. PPI checked out - all original including cassette stereo and 15" Fuchs - good compression - needed 45,000 mile service - records - oil changed religiously. Interior showed no wear (and full leather)- I paid $19,000.

Picture attached. Yes, deals are out there - keep looking - drive lots of cars - get the best car for your money. Good luck and don't fall in love with the first car that comes your way - Porsche's are easy to fall in love with - even with a repaint...

[jyl]

I would keep looking.

A good respray doesn't help the value, a color change hurts it, a bad one crushes the value. The cost to re-do is uneconomic. And why was the car re-sprayed, if not due to an accident or poor care? And why did the owner get a bad job done, if not due to unwillingness to spend money on the car? You may not care, but the next owner will when you try to sell it to get a 993 etc.

I bought my 89 3.2 early last year and found the cars were fairly common - unless you insisted on an unusual color, there were always 10+ clean ones around. $18-20K got you a nice driver car. $22K got you a very clean car. $25-27K got you a nearly perfect car with low miles, maybe a limited edition. All this was with original paint. Prices have come down a lot in the last year. I think those prices would be $3K to $5K lower now.

[stone43]

Jeremy, dood!

Good pick up! 45K mile cabs are rare, especially at that price. I will take the 5th on what I paid for mine (initially and continually).

[einreb]

i need to be patient. i need to be patient. i need to be patient. i need to be patient. i need to be patient. i need to be patient. i need to be patient.

I'm repeating this over and over in my head.

thanks for the advice

one other question... I actually started out looking at 993's, but after driving an 87... just fell in love with it. the sound/feeling is so different. How much quicker (i.e. 0-60) are the 993's? i know they have more hp, but they are a bit heavier, no?

[JeremyD]

Yes the 1987 to 1989's are great cars - but I do miss the 3.6 of the 964's and 993's - sure they are a little heavier - but the torque on the 3.6 is much better. Different cars definitely.

I thought the 993's were almost too quiet. Very refined - I really went for the 3.2 (1987 to 1989) because they were one of the few that seemed to retain their values - the 993's and 964's resales are dropping like rocks...

[don911]

I'll add another "keep looking". Hold out for a nice, original car. You'll be happier with a trouble free car than a car that always has "small" issues.
As far as 993's. I love my 87 but if I were in the market today, I would try to buy a 96 or 97 - 993, no question.

[Don Plumley]

I'll add to the vote about keep looking. My 87 has pristine original paint, 60K miles 2 years ago when I acquired it. Had all records, new clutch/update, etc., etc.

I felt that an 87 would be a great introduction to the marque - new enough to have a very reliable engine/mechanicals, yet old enough to let me work on it a bit, plus the visceral feel/sounds that make you know you have a Porsche. My only minor complaint is the ventillation befits a car from Europe. But it's a third car, so I just run with the windows open, which lets me hear the engine that much better.

One day I'd like a 993 and a Beck Spyder or RS Clone. Until then, the 3.2 fits the bill nicely.

Keep Looking. Oh, did I already say that. My bad.

Good Luck!

Don

[nostatic]

for me, the paint job is a deal killer unless you want to track it or it is dirt cheap. It is common to see resprayed silver cars, since the factory silver often had "issues". That being said, mine is original and looks great, although there might have been a panel or two redone.

The other thing to consider is premature valve guide wear. At 45K, the engine is just entering the typical "window" for that problem. So for a worst case scenario, if you had to do valve guides, clutch and a good paint job, you'll be spending about $10-15K. If you've already spent $23K up front, that's a pretty expensive '87.

Keep looking. A low miles car really shouldn't have many issues if the owner cared for it.

[JeremyD]

Hey Nostatic - are you feeling better? Any more nyquil buzzes?