997 Cup Intake Manifold on 993 3.6L

[Antonov]

I'm looking to fit a 997 GT3 Cup intake manifold on a non-varioram 993 motor without going ITB or even Motec if possible, stock DME with tuning capability.

I've down some research, as far as fitting the 997 GT3 Cup manifold..... euro 993 RS injector blocks fit the manifold and the heads. The manifold itself has to be narrowed which I don't think is a big deal.

I think you use the factory cup throttle body /y-pipe (narrowed) and just have to rig up the throttle cable, but can you run the stock 993 MAF or is there another compatible?

The next bit is the resonance flap. Can that be made to work with without having to run Motec or standalone. The plastic 3.6L manifold has a flap, so perhaps this could be made to work with the 997 mani.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

-Dino

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Antonov

I'm looking to fit a 997 GT3 Cup intake manifold on a non-varioram 993 motor without going ITB or even Motec if possible, stock DME with tuning capability.

I've down some research, as far as fitting the 997 GT3 Cup manifold..... euro 993 RS injector blocks fit the manifold and the heads. The manifold itself has to be narrowed which I don't think is a big deal.

I think you use the factory cup throttle body /y-pipe (narrowed) and just have to rig up the throttle cable, but can you run the stock 993 MAF or is there another compatible?

The next bit is the resonance flap. Can that be made to work with without having to run Motec or standalone. The plastic 3.6L manifold has a flap, so perhaps this could be made to work with the 997 mani.

Any inout would be greatly appreciated.

-Dino

This intake? If so the stock Motronic will run the flap in the same way as this, you would of course need to have a chip made to activate the flap at whatever rpm, load and temp you need



Interested in the reasoning here, usually these are used on top of ITBs to enhance torque in the mid range. The stock plastic aren't bad as long as rpm is limited to low 7k

[Antonov]

Thanks for chiming in Bill. I think you have a street manifold pictured above, cup manifold looks a bit different.

The engine has a stout bottom end, a bit of cam, rev's to 7300rpm, 996/7 cup manifold is something I want try as I feel its getting chocked up.

I know most use this in conjunction with ITB's, but I feel as though there could be a benefit on a single throttle setup as well.

I'll update this a learn more, back to back dyno.......

This is the manifold I'd like to fit.

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

Interested in the reasoning here, usually these are used on top of ITBs to enhance torque in the mid range. The stock plastic aren't bad as long as rpm is limited to low 7k

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Antonov

Thanks for chiming in Bill. I think you have a street manifold pictured above, cup manifold looks a bit different.

The engine has a stout bottom end, a bit of cam, rev's to 7300rpm, 996/7 cup manifold is something I want try as I feel its getting chocked up.

I know most use this in conjunction with ITB's, but I feel as though there could be a benefit on a single throttle setup as well.

I'll update this a learn more, back to back dyno.......

This is the manifold I'd like to fit.

The intake I posed was a 2009 GT3Cup
This one appears to be a GT3 street used on M97.01 & 05


regardless the answer is the same, the vacuum actuator, #10 can be actuated by the same vacuum line as used on a stock non-v-ram manifold, customized chip will be needed

[rsscotty]

We have done the narrowing and dyno testing on the 997 GT3 intake on engines from 3.6 to 4.0 with ITB. One is always hopeful of finding something trick that is the magic bullet. There is nothing to be gained over using the black plastic intake on a 3.6 unless you are going with heads and cams and are making over 315 hp. That is where the black plastic runs out of airflow from 6500 and up. The 996 GT3 intake would solve that issue, but the 997 is too big volume wise and port velocity goes down hurting the midrange big time. The 997 intake does not do much better compared to the 996 on a 450 hp 4 liter. All of the engines from 3.0 upwards are very sensitive to intake volume as we have seen from numerous tests on our engine dyno.

[Antonov]

Thanks for your input, will look into 996 Cup, sounds like it might do the trick.

Originally Posted by Antonov

The engine has a stout bottom end, a bit of cam, rev's to 7300rpm, 996/7 cup manifold is something I want try as I feel its getting chocked up.

I know most use this in conjunction with ITB's, but I feel as though there could be a benefit on a single throttle setup as well.

Originally Posted by rsscotty

There is nothing to be gained over using the black plastic intake on a 3.6 unless you are going with heads and cams and are making over 315 hp. That is where the black plastic runs out of airflow from 6500 and up. The 996 GT3 intake would solve that issue

[Mahler9th]

Perhaps some relevant food for thought... depends on all of your variables.

I ran a mildly cammed 3.8 with a plastic 993 intake and 993 TB for a while in my race car. I fed the 993 TB via a 4 inch diameter tube and a large cone filter.

After a few years, I decided I wanted more, so we went with more aggressive cams. Instead of adding several thousand dollars to the cost of the change via purchase of ITB's, I replaced the 993 TB with a large BBK throttle body. It was pretty easy to fab it up.

MY EFI is Haltech so we were able to tune for the increased air flow. The cams were 993 rsr-like, and we made more power than the previous arrangement.

A lot more power.... but not documented via dyno.

In my configuration I control the resonant flapper with a simple RPM switch.

When I converted into a different racing class in '15, I had to re-install a 3.6 TB. So my BBK is sitting on the shelf. I think it is an 80mm TB compared to stock 3.6 which is 70 if I recall correctly.

Some pictures are below.

[Antonov]

Interesting setup. Looks like you deleted the MAF, did you end up running MAP instead?

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

Perhaps some relevant food for thought... depends on all of your variables.

I ran a mildly cammed 3.8 with a plastic 993 intake and 993 TB for a while in my race car. I fed the 993 TB via a 4 inch diameter tube and a large cone filter.

After a few years, I decided I wanted more, so we went with more aggressive cams. Instead of adding several thousand dollars to the cost of the change via purchase of ITB's, I replaced the 993 TB with a large BBK throttle body. It was pretty easy to fab it up.

MY EFI is Haltech so we were able to tune for the increased air flow. The cams were 993 rsr-like, and we made more power than the previous arrangement.

A lot more power.... but not documented via dyno.

In my configuration I control the resonant flapper with a simple RPM switch.

When I converted into a different racing class in '15, I had to re-install a 3.6 TB. So my BBK is sitting on the shelf. I think it is an 80mm TB compared to stock 3.6 which is 70 if I recall correctly.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

Perhaps some relevant food for thought... depends on all of your variables.

I ran a mildly cammed 3.8 with a plastic 993 intake and 993 TB for a while in my race car. I fed the 993 TB via a 4 inch diameter tube and a large cone filter.

After a few years, I decided I wanted more, so we went with more aggressive cams. Instead of adding several thousand dollars to the cost of the change via purchase of ITB's, I replaced the 993 TB with a large BBK throttle body. It was pretty easy to fab it up.

MY EFI is Haltech so we were able to tune for the increased air flow. The cams were 993 rsr-like, and we made more power than the previous arrangement.

A lot more power.... but not documented via dyno.

In my configuration I control the resonant flapper with a simple RPM switch.

When I converted into a different racing class in '15, I had to re-install a 3.6 TB. So my BBK is sitting on the shelf. I think it is an 80mm TB compared to stock 3.6 which is 70 if I recall correctly.

Some pictures are below.

That's similar to what the 993Cups used. No Maf, metering was by throttle position and MAP.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Antonov

Thanks for your input, will look into 996 Cup, sounds like it might do the trick.

996Cup looks the same as in you pic, the street version and Cup versions appear similar but have different part #s, I don't know what the difference is.

[Mahler9th]

Yes, the factory MAF is not used in my set up. My Haltech uses throttle position.

The 90 degree rubber transition elbow at the throttle body and the 4 " diameter alu tubing were obtained from ATP Turbo.

I think you could do the same thing with the factory MAF... you would just have to make sure whatever transition elbow you use mates with the larger throttle on one side and the factory MAF tube on the other side. Then you could use an alu tube that matches the diameter of the MAF and come out to an air filter. I think that would be pretty easy, relatively speaking.

In my case, I did some mild porting on the 993 plastic intake "T" to match the bigger throttle body outlet.

Of course I also modified the throttle body to work with my linkage-- which is a 911 variation, as opposed to a 993 cable arrangement. You can kind of see what I did in the BBK TB picture. I also added a WOT microswitch arrangement on the TB so I can have a WOT light in my race car dash that is easily visible in the in-car video FOV. Again, this TB is now sitting on a shelf in my garage.

Haltech can easily deal with the Ford-style throttle position switch on the BBK. One might be able to to get the factory ECU to also deal with this switch as opposed to the stock throttle position 993 switch, OR modify the BBK TB to use the factory 993 switch instead of the Ford-style one it comes with. A bit of cleverness would be required here.

I made a custom, carbon fiber air filter box which can either use a large cone filter (which is currently in place) or a 993-style flat filter. And I made and use a custom carbon fiber "fan box" to help route air from the top side of the deck lid into the fan.

All of this sits under an aftermarket 3.8 RSR-style decklid.

I think this picture will give you an idea:

[Mahler9th]

I should add that in my application, 1 3/4 inch OD SCARGO headers were used on the other end. Fantastic parts.

When I moved to a different class, I had to change to 1 5/8 inch OD headers. I could not justify the SCARGO's for this project so instead I purchased some similar headers from William Knight.

Again, I am not sure what your variables are, but I'd feel remiss if I didn't mention headers. Of course we all know these things are best addressed as systems.

[Antonov]

Got it, figured it was some Alpha-N arrangement. PM Sent

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

Yes, the factory MAF is not used in my set up. My Haltech uses throttle position.