996 track rat??

BK911 · BK911's Garage

Thinking of heading to the track again for a couple of DEs a year.
Would like to pick up a 996 to use as a track rat and canyon carver.
Good choice?
Any particular year or model?
Any to avoid?
Have a $20k soft budget.

Evan Fullerton · 03-23-2017, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BK911

Any to avoid?

All of them unless it's a GT3 or Turbo and you don't budget another $20k for drivetrain replacement for when the engine dies a premature death due to oil pressure issues mid corner, a failed IMS, cracked cylinder head, failed lifter, oil injestion when the oil separator fails, or the sealed roller bearings used in the transmission fail. 996 Carreras are a great track rat value until one of a long list of potential catastrophic engine failure modes occur.

If you don't drive it really hard on R compound tires or slicks it will probably last a while. Treat it like a spec Miata and try and drive the wheels off of it and you might get 2 seasons out of it before the motor pops of oil pressure related issues if you get a good one. Less if it's a tired example already.

Tippy · 03-23-2017, 05:18 AM

If you address the Raby IMS bearing upgrade and put a baffle in the wet sump plate, it'll be fine.

If you run it long sweeps that may ultimately starve the engine if oil, Moroso sells an oil accumulator that should prevent oil pressure loss.

Elombard · 03-23-2017, 05:28 AM

I am reading no good way to cool the oil (oil pump not strong enough to pump through long lines to the front of the car).

Raby gets around this on his track 996 by running some crazy race oil that does not break down with heat, its like $20 a quart......and you cant run it on the street. Adds several hundred bucks to the weekend. Some people re-use the oil....

Lukesportsman · 03-23-2017, 08:11 AM

Oil pan: Like any other wet sump, improve or replace it.

IMS fixes abound

Run an external oil pump for cooling and add total volume to system.

Upgrade cooling system and consider Evans non water coolant.

Best bang for buck is probably a car with replaced warranty engine. value of non matching takes it down. Value as race car goes up with low mileage and OEM upgrades. There are a lot of Boxsters and Caymans used on track with proper mods and lots of miles.

Caveat: I own only Mezger engine'd Porsches

and yeah one with a wetsump Chevy.

Lukesportsman · 03-23-2017, 08:14 AM

Sad reality (or a great one if your done buying air cooled cars) is that a great air cooled engine is worth a whole 996! So the old simple answer was to run a pre 996 911 is no longer a straight forward economic choice. Superior chassis and aero with an engine that needs some help.

Tremelune · 03-23-2017, 11:50 AM

Why a 996? You could probably get into a 987 for similar money, and it'd be the perfect track car with a few oil circulation upgrades.

LakeCleElum · 03-23-2017, 11:56 AM

I'm not a Corvette fan, but for your purpose; makes sense??????

Mehoff · Mehoff's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan Fullerton

If you don't drive it really hard on R compound tires or slicks it will probably last a while. Treat it like a spec Miata and try and drive the wheels off of it and you might get 2 seasons out of it before the motor pops of oil pressure related issues if you get a good one. Less if it's a tired example already.

^ THIS. The 996 is a great DE car, until you start to improve/push the car. Anything close to maxed out and they are grenades with the pin pulled.

I cannot recommend enough to not competitively track a 996.

1988 IROC replica race car: 5 years of competition, zero engine issues (rebuild at 100hrs)
2003 996: 2 years, 3 motors, 3 AOS's, 2 cooling systems (and they all had deep sump, baffles, external coolers, IMS fix, etc). They don't last. Period.

Mike Billings · 03-23-2017, 12:19 PM

As I understand it, I would not want to track my Corvette with R tires for the exact same oil pickup issues that 996 has. It's OK for occasional street use, however. Need to put in a dry sump system or just drive and dispose as necessary.

Tremelune · 03-23-2017, 01:48 PM

Dumb question: What did Porsche put in their 996 cup cars?

Evan Fullerton · 01:58 PM

A simplified GT3 motor (no variable cams) that can trace its roots to the GT1 engine and air cooled 3.6L. In fact the early ones still carried a 964 part number on the case.

Porsche kept this same design through last year in the race cars because it was the only thing they could keep reliable........ though when stretched to 4.0L with 9000RPM redlined making over 600hp in unrestricted RSR trim had shockingly short and expensive service intervals.

Bleedsblue · 03-23-2017, 01:57 PM

Well damn. I don't have an actual dog in this fight, but am disappointed to hear this either way. The cars are such bargains!

Tremelune · 03-23-2017, 02:04 PM

Wow. They put a Mezger in all their "good" cars...It's almost like they knew...

Trackrash · Trackrash's Garage

A little off topic I know but what about Boxsters and Caymen? Are there any models that are better than the others? I am talking about any and all the water pumpers.

Tremelune · 03-23-2017, 04:42 PM

The 987.1 with the M97 motor has oiling issues during serious track duty (due to G-forces with R-compound tires). With a few well-known mods, all issues can be resolved.

The 987.2 with the 9A1 motor has much better oiling, but suffers from carbon build-up like all other DFI motors and must be cleaned periodically to regain performance.

Both handle perfectly, if you can use that word here.

bpu699 · 03-23-2017, 06:20 PM

996 with a v8

Lukesportsman · 04:26 AM

V8 w dry sump maybe.....but we have certainly left the easy/cheap track car now.

Bargain 996 turbo, resist turbo upgrades! And she should last well. Better transmission too as its a decendant too.

I think VERY little has to do with engineering skill buy yet intent. 996 c2 was designed to be simpler and cheaper to both build and sell than 993. They then went on to sell more GT cars than previous models to fill track use. It was no longer one car to do all.

Rereading OP. No don't buy a 20k turbo! Maybe a 30k turbo, but u get somewhat u pay for and all GT/turbo engines carry like air-cooled rebuild costs.

Tremelune · 03-24-2017, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukesportsman

I think VERY little has to do with engineering skill buy yet intent.

Oh, of course. In the 70s, 80s, and 90s, BMW and Porsche were competing to build the absolute best road and track cars that could be built. Very few emissions and safety regulations existed, materials were top-quality, and tolerances were 2-3x what was required...As a result, we got the 911, 964, 993, E30, E36 etc...and they almost went out of business because nobody was buying new cars.

Enter the era of Chris Bangle and the 996...BMW and Porsche began competing on profit. Costs were cut across the board. Cars were built to consistently meet the warranty period and go no further. Absurd electronic gadgetry infiltrated. They started building SUVs. The saddest bit is probably that business boomed. People bought them all up at phenomenal rates. I was left in the dust, and nobody cared, because I do not buy new cars, sooo...I can't say it was the wrong move for the business. It's just a bummer that I'm more drawn to turbo Mustang and targa Miata than a modern 911.

I don't think air-cooled Porsches shot up in price because of nostalgia or Singer or Magnus. I think they shot up because they are literally the best cars ever built. They drive exceptionally well even when compared to most contemporary vehicles, and they're still gorgeous. I have a 987.1 Cayman S and it is fantastic. It still has me wondering if I should have simply modified my '87 coupe. I failed to take my own advice about not worrying about resale.

Anyway. I digress.

BK911 · BK911's Garage

Thanks for the info guys.
Not what I wanted to hear, but better to hear it now before I drop $20k!