She's Gone.....Now the Seach Begins [Long]

[SeaDweller]

Howdy!!!

Well, I concluded the sale of my SC yesterday, and watched her new owner drive away with a smile from ear to ear! Her new home will be in Memphis, TN. I have to admit I was quite bummed about it all last night, kind of depressed, but it really takes the sting out of selling it when you see that the new owner has so much excitement and enthusiasm. I know he'll take the car to the next level, and believe it or not, that was important to me!

I poured my heart and soul into that car (and more money than I'll ever admit ). It wasn't perfect, but driving by it looked concours to me!!!! Mechanically, that car is second only to a new one, if you could find a new '78 that is. Many of you know my history with that car, and being my first Porsche, what a history it was................

Now I begin the process of looking for a replacement. I'll likely drive the board nuts over the next month or so with questions, but I've got a bunch to start out with.

First of all, what years should I consider? I graduated Magna Cum Laude with a Doctorate in Lessons Hard Learned from Porsche University, so additional schooling I don't need. While I enjoyed it (well, most of it), I'm not interested in getting into a car that needs a new engine, top-end rebuilds, paint, or anything else. While the SC's are bullet-proof, I need a car with a little more refinement. Here's a list of additional questions I have to start with:

1. Regarding the question of years to consider, are there years that should be discounted completely? Are there ideal years, such as those where the bugs were completely worked out of a particular series of car?

2. Although I love the long-hood cars, I need something newer and more refined than my SC. If I had a second car, I'd buy another SC (that will pass CA emissions of course), but I put 3K miles on my SC in two years, using it as my "daily driver." As such, I can't justify a second car. Are the late 80's cars a significant step up in refinement, or do you have to go to the 964 series?

3. I've read of head stud and valve guide issues with the 3.2L engines, which would impact the '84-'89 model years, right? Was this problem endemic to ALL 3.2L engines, or just certain model years? If so, should these years be avoided altogether, unless the updates have been done?

4. How about the 3.6L engine? What issues have arisen with this engine? All models years, or just the early models?

5. What about transmission issues? Were't there years that had issues and required expensive transmission updates?

6. I've heard horror stories about the servicability and cost of maintaining the 993's. What's the real scoop?

7. What model year saw the biggest step in refinement? Let me qualify by saying I won't by anything beyond a 993, but more likely nothing beyond a 964.

8. What model year saw a truly effective air conditioning system (one that'll work, I mean REALLY work).

9. I realize this question will get me thrown off the board , but should I give any consideration whatsoever to a Tiptronic tranny?

Finally (for this round anyway), if I could ask another big favor, I'd like to know the good and bad points of each series, the 911, 964, and 993. Maybe this will help me shift through the maze!!!!!!

Thanks everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nostatic]

I think the bottom line is the *every* year had some sort of issues. Some are overblown, some underrated. I think your best bet is to find an example of each vintage (3.2, 964, 993) and see if any of those really speak to you more than the other...then proceed to try and find the best example of the model you like. But there is quite a bit of the "crapshoot" involved in ownership.

For example, '90 is generally regarded as the "worst" year for the 964. But there are plenty of happy owners that haven't experienced any of the textbook problem. '93-'94 is probably considered the "best" years for this model...and I'm sure you could find owners that have poured money into fixing things.

At any rate, decent AC probably started with the 964. In '86 they at least went to larger vents on the dash, so that helps somewhat. All of the 3.2 cars could have valve guide issues...I know my ex-87 now does (started at about 60K after I sold it). The early 964s had bad freewheels, leaky heads, and broken distributor belts. All of these can be addressed, some more cheaply than others. Early 993s had wiring harness issues. In addition, there are some rumblings now about the 3.6 engines having issues with longevity.

I'm sure you'll get tons of input along the way, but I found that each model had a different feel and vibe. See if you find the same thing, and go with one that sends you. And be prepared to sink more money into it

[DonDavis]

I think your buyer and I traded emails about mine as your deal was nearing the final steps. He was up front with me and told me he most likely had a deal in FL and was curious about mine as a possible back up. Seemed like a nice guy and I bet your car has a great new home.

Good luck with your search.

[pbs911]

Is it still a possiblity that you may be transfered to CA? If so, you may want to look for your next car there.

A little more refinement . . . how about a late 92 -94 C2 that you backdate to the early long hood style? The C2's seem to be a good buy. Working AC, G50 trans, 3.6 motor. The 90-91 have a few problems of leaking heads due to the lack of a head gasket, but it seems to be only a few motors that have the problems. Porsche worked out the head gasket problem in late 92.

993 are beautiful cars, but when I was looking for one they are a little too much refined. The 964 should put you somewhere in the middle.

The 84-89 models are cars that were made out of some left over parts from the dominate SC era.

[SeaDweller]

Yeah, he's a really nice guy, and in my opinion, got a great deal on a great car!!!

[Joe Bob]

Sounds like you sold it to Jurgen.....

Are you still coming to California? Wait till you get out here and then start looking. There are tons of cars....they mostly seem to be Targas right now. Kind of wierd, but they are relatively modest in pricing......

[SeaDweller]

Do I have to buy a CA car for it to pass CA emissions, or will a US car with the standard smog equipment make it's way through the process? I know when I first moved to CA, our Honda wasn't a CA vehicle, and it passed...........

[JeremyD]

Hey, you don't have a Porsche anymore - you can't post here!

Hee Hee!

Like Nostatic said - they all have their issues - just some more than others. In your shoes - I would keep my eyes peeled for a nice 1992 to 1994 C2 Cabriolet to make your wife happy! Congrats!

[steve911]

Michael--
US car with standard smog should have no problems passing CA emissions. Two years ago I bought an '85 out of TX and brought it to CA - passed without a hitch.

Good luck in the search!

[BlkBird]

A 930 maybe?

Can't recall if this is a Grey market car or not... think so though. She has the European marker lights on the sides just in front of the doors.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2401506486

Or Sean's car truly is a nice machine in excellent condition.

Selling the 911

[930fan]

Originally posted by SeaDweller

9. I realize this question will get me thrown off the board , but should I give any consideration whatsoever to a Tiptronic tranny?

When I first read about the tiptronic transmission I hated it. I thought it a stupid idea for a sports car and the magazine tests show it to be about 1 second plus slower from 0-60mph and a second down in the quarter mile too. I have since had a lot of driving experience in a 964 and a 993 tip and I think its not bad at all, especially if someone spends a significant amount of time in traffic as a daily driver.

On the road, you will fell a slight shortfall in performance but except for the initial few feet from the lights, it is in most circumstances as quick as a manual. The tip is smarter than your average auto since it knows not too upshift if you back off the throttle while cornering hard and it also knows too hold a gear longer if you are in a hurry and back off when in cruise mode. Tips are also the most reliable transmission ever made by Porsches and tip cars do not have flywheel problems, are cheaper and trend to be driven gentler than manual cars. You will also know that overreving is not a worry with a pre-owned tip.

If it were my weekend toy, I would say manual for sure but for a daily driver in lots of traffic, I would take a tip.

964s are much more refined (and have ABS) than a 3.2 but they have lots more potential problems due to added complexity.

[old_skul]

Originally posted by SeaDweller

1. Regarding the question of years to consider, are there years that should be discounted completely?

Yes. Avoid the 2.7 motors, from what I've seen. Also, parts availability for earlier years ('60s - '77) seem to be in tighter supply. The '84 and newer cars seem to have plentiful parts available, but I've seen postings from Wayne about this that scare me.

2. Although I love the long-hood cars, I need something newer and more refined than my SC...Are the late 80's cars a significant step up in refinement, or do you have to go to the 964 series?

I use my '86 as a daily driver, and it has performed better than my old '96 Jetta as a daily driver. It does not have some of the more modern accoutrements (A/C, rear seat, usable trunk space) but it functions as a personal vehicle well. I *have* hauled home supplies in it though - I've brought home mulch, framed pictures, carpets - you just have to be creative.

3. I've read of head stud and valve guide issues with the 3.2L engines, which would impact the '84-'89 model years, right? Was this problem endemic to ALL 3.2L engines, or just certain model years? If so, should these years be avoided altogether, unless the updates have been done?

There's few if any updates to help out the '84 - '89 years. I understand in '86 they moved to chromed valve stems to mitigate the valve guide issues. I have also heard that while SCs had issues with head studs, the Carrera series doesn't seem to have them as much. There are examples of bad head studs, of course, but I think the Carreras did better with them than SCs did.

4. How about the 3.6L engine? What issues have arisen with this engine? All models years, or just the early models?

There's 2 3.6l engines: the 964 series and 993 series. The 964 engines had problems with head gaskets (updateable), the twin distributor (updateable), and the multiplate clutch (updateable). If you find a 964 with the updates done, I think you're golden, but I'd like to hear from some 964 owners on this.

The 993 engine is regarded as the "perfect" 911 air-cooled motor. No known issues (yet, that I know of).

5. What about transmission issues? Were't there years that had issues and required expensive transmission updates?

The '84 - '86 Carreras have the 915 tranny and its associated problems with synchro wear and driveability. It's not bad as long as you keep up with linkage bushings, Swepco, and you don't mind rebuilding your tranny at $1000 a pop from, ahem, one of Pelican's competitors once every 100K miles.

The '87 - '89 911 had the G50 tranny, based on a Getrag design, with a hydraulic clutch. It fixed a lot of problems.

The '89 - on 911 had a variety of trannies based on the G50 design. Some were set up for AWD on the C4 models. I have heard a few stories about front differentials and torque converters failing. Not enough data exists yet to make a call on it, I don't think. Be careful and get a PPI on the tranny system if you're considering these cars.

6. I've heard horror stories about the servicability and cost of maintaining the 993's. What's the real scoop?

Quoting Bruce Anderson, you have to have "two elbows" to change the oil filters on a 993. That's right, there's more than one, and one is hard to get to. Prepare for a different level of DIY with these cars I think. Is there anyone here with a 993 who does DIY? I have limited experience. I've bled the brakes on one...same as the earlier cars. The wheels are bigger and tires cost more.

964s are a little easier to work on, and the Carrera series was build with self-maintenance in mind.

7. What model year saw the biggest step in refinement? Let me qualify by saying I won't by anything beyond a 993, but more likely nothing beyond a 964.

Big changes in 911s:

1984: Carrera introduced with Motronic DME.
1986: Chromed valve stems, better dash vents.
1987: The G50 replaces the venerable 915.
1989: The new 964 is introduced. 70% different from the previous years. 3.6l engine, new suspension, etc.
1995: 993 introduced. Newer body style.
1996: Varioram added, 30HP increase.
1999: New motor, watercooled. New body, new everything. 100% different car.

I would say the 964 was the biggest change. Whether or not the change was a postive one is up for debate. Biggest positive step? The 993. Most cost-effective step? The G50 tranny in '87.

8. What model year saw a truly effective air conditioning system (one that'll work, I mean REALLY work).

1986's change to the dash made real A/C a possibility for the 911. The 1995 993 had Texas-capable A/C.

Targas don't need A/C.

9. I realize this question will get me thrown off the board , but should I give any consideration whatsoever to a Tiptronic tranny?

You're fired.

Just kidding. No, don't consider it. Would you want to drive a Rolls Royce with a 6-speed? I didn't think so. Automatic trannies are higher-maintenance, lower-performance, lower-gas mileage, luxury items for a different class of car. Stick with a manual. (Oooo, bad pun!)

Hope this helps.

[KTL]

I think 964's have gotten a bad rap.

Certainly the problems mentioned above are legitimate and documented issues. But being that your are in the market for a used one, you have an advantage. The newest of 964's is approaching 10 yrs. old. Odds are that many of the problems have been addressed by the previous owner(s). If not, find one that does have the necessary problems addressed.

The problem with the 964 and 993 is that the complexity of the cars has increased (engine management, instrumentation, ABS, power steering, climate control, etc.) and they can be a little tougher to diagnose for the average DIY'er (like me).

The earlier cars are certainly more basic and repair costs are thereby less.

Don't rule out the valve guide issues on 87 and newer cars. There have been valve guide issues on cars as late as the 993!

Tiptronic cars are not necessarily that bad. I've driven a few and I was certainly not disappointed in the performance. The 95 993 I drove was a bit sluggish (seems to upshift too soon) around town but on the open road it moves out really well when you mash the gas.

[tshih]

My favorite and most reliable of the 3 different series would be the 1993-94 964 (especially the RSA). It's the best of all worlds...has the closest race car feel without the window squeaks (of 993), decent power and ease of maintenance.

Good luck.

[patalive]

I agree with TSHIH - I went from an 83SC (11 years) to a 93 964 C2 and I could not be more pleased! As has been posted on other threads, the 964 is a Carrera on the outside and about 85 percent 993 under the skin.
-
The C2 is a far more refined car for a daily driver - from the G50 set up, to the coil over suspension to the power steering, to the climate control system, to the brakes, etc. AND that 3.6 has grunt, both at lower rpm and of course from 4k and up. (and with a drilled airbox and secondary muffler bypass, the sound at 4k and up with wide open throttle is absolutely mind boggling.
-
If you don't like some of the refinements, then get the RSA - it comes in varying level of trim, (A/C, sunroof, radio, etc) and without power steering. But it has upgraded suspension and BRAKES!
-
In my mind, the 964s are the perfect pcar - the classic looks of the Porsche but with the modern refinements. Look for a 93 or 94. Drive one!

Chuck
93 C2

[Wayne 962]

Sounds like you already made up your mind to go with a 964 or a 993. The 964 has some questionable reliability / leak issues - if you can affort it, go with the 993...

-Wayne

[9XI]

Wayne, I think your statement is a bit misleading. Later 964s ('93 and '94) have head gaskets, reliable flywheels and most have the distributors vented. If the distributor's not vented, you take an hour and install the vent at very modest cost. What engine problems does that leave?

I'll put in a plug for the RSA, not that I'm biased

Simply a thrilling automobile -- power, balance, looks, sport handling and trim.

Same price as a 993, give or take (there's a thread going in the 964 forum on pricing).

Good luck in your quest!