Deciding the fate of the 71 soft window
 

OK guys, time for a sanity check on the 71 T targa softie restoration. I listed some of the good points and bad points of the car in this thread. The chassis has a lot of good stuff going for it but as many of you know, the cost of a restoration can be outrageous, even doing most of the work myself. The thing I'm having the most trouble getting my brain around is the ultimate cost of the restoration and the value of the end product. As much fun as it would be to put this thing back together, I'm estimating a roughly $15 - $18 K investment with a ~$10,000 car in the end. The question is, is this car significant enough to pour that kind of cash in to it, or, is it as stated in this thread a somewhat desirable but not that valuable of a car.

How about another option? I pull the front end, the rear bumper, and the soft window hardware. Sell off the chassis. Find a front end wrecked SC/Carrera Targa. Do you see where I’m going here? Graft on the early sheet metal. Install the soft rear window. Add on a ducktail of course. Paint it signal orange, viper green or Jack Olsen black. The cost of a decent wreck is ~$8500. I can do the body/paintwork, so ~$800 for materials. About $600 for a new soft window and boot. Say $2000 for misc repairs. I made an initial investment of $1500 in the roller. Am I missing something here or for around $13.5K I can have a very cool and unique car with early bodywork, rear flairs, a later drivetrain, and soft window. What are you guys (and girls) thoughts? As a reminder here is another pic of the roller.
Mark

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/IMG_0797sm.JPG

Buyers remorse?

I don't know what the ultimate value of the car is. But if you're restoring for profit, forget it. If your not doing it fun, don't do it.

An SC tarted up to look like an early car (bet you never heard that before) is cool, but it's not an early car.

Maybe I missed it on an earlier thread of yours, but what is the goal? Make money now? Drive the car for 20 years? Very different answers for very different goals, IMHO.

No, not buyers remorse at at. And profit motive never entered my mind. This is my third 911 and I know full well that they are an expensive hobby. The point of my post (and maybe I didn't make this very clear) was to seek opinions/ideas from other members about the highest and best use of the car without sinking a ridiculous amount of money in to it. Porsches come and go out of our lives and owning one car for 20 years is probably not in the picture for me. Losing money on a 911 is almost a given. I'm just not willing to give up my retirement for one.

If you are going to keep it for a while and use it a lot, I would invest the 17 to 18 grand, if it can be done for that. I would just assess whether you plan to use it 7 to 8 grand worth. If the answer is yes, then you go forward.

Who knows. The soft window might surprise you and appreciate. People seem to put them in a separate desireable category, and you would have quite a nice example once you were done.

My vote is to restore it, if you really think it can be done at a reasonable price.

I am in the midst of a restoration too
it is a 73 chassis signal orange and I want to customize a soft rear window

DON'T DO IT if resale value is your main concern...

doign the SC route won't save you much in the long run your car will be a freinkenstien of parts and will not sell well

where if you restore the car you may get close to breaking even on your investment while enjoying a great car

but return can't be priority...

you also have to think that you are paying for the "privilidge" of working on these cars and paying for the experience, and paying for the time that you get to enjoy the car...

good luck...and remember me if you sell off the soft rear hardware!!!

MJ

Then I say stay the course. It will be an awesome car when it's done.

Third 911, including the early 'E' with the sport muffler from the NW, isn't it, Mark???

As a project without a profit motive, it sounds like fun ... I assume you just don't want to pour money into a bottomless pit, only to find out later it doesn't have much value.

One thing I would suggest is to ignore any naysayers that suggest that an early Targa (any Targa) will NEVER have much value! The soft-window Targas haven't really ever been differentiated from the glass-window variety, so tracking a history or plotting trends would be very, very difficult! However, the rarity of soft-window Targas is beginning to be appreciated, and a few have recently brought very hefty sums!

I vote for doing it 'your' way, enjoy the project, and don't worry about opinions of those who aren't Targa fans!

I think you have found a special car. I think that soft window feature places it's value in a narrow but higher than standard category. I think you will appreciate having a special car at the end.... if not sell it now to some of the many people who would be seeking such a project and not just any 911.

just my stinky opinion. that thing does need work. but if you can do it at your leisure you will be the one to see the rewards. and I hate to see beautiful cars that are assembled from a hodge podge of later/newer cars. if you want an early car do it, if you want a later car get that. but I think your resale will be worse w/ the variety approach

best of luck no matter what you chose!

rudy sanchez

I personally like the best of both worlds with a long hood on a galvanized car BUT.. If you don't get it exactly right then your buyers not going to like it. I'd say stick with a stock year look.. aka flares for wider tires are cool but a c2 body on a 75 just doesn't cut it in my book. To me that just seems like rice.

Carefully fog and preserve the engine, stick the car in an old barn in North Carolina, put a tarp over it and wait 5 years. Somebody will contact you and gladly pay $5-8000. for the title!
Just a fleeting thought. Really, good luck with the project in whatever form it takes. Mike

My vote (FWIW of course) would be to restore this car or at sell it to someone that will. There aren't many of these out there. Sure a soft-window isn't THAT valuable/desireable today, but who knows abouts tommorrow. I think that early 911s will always have a following. And, as everyone knows, early cars are better looking and more fun to drive than the 74-on 911s ;)

Restore the car and drop in a bigger motor. Put the window down, free up the exhaust and listen to the music.

Chuck

All good stuff guys. Warren, you are correct, this is the third. The E is now in the hands of a local collector. Here are my 3 mistresses.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/collage.JPG

The 71' T softwindow Sporto Targa is not an investment. Most of the Collector Cars that demand top dollar were hugely popular in their day. Something this car never was.

Moving the unusual parts to an SC chassis will indeed turn that car into one of the Frankensteins' that show up on ebay that we talk about with most people hating and a chosen few liking.

There is no short cut for bringing this car back to life. Just commitment.

That car is unique and needs a unique owner that doesn't care about markets or opinions. The question is are you that owner?

Sorry if I seem harsh. I'm just trying to cut to the chase. I've posted questions here and have found the non sugarcoated replies very helpful.

Well, you have made the rounds in terms of individual character and now you should appreciate and enjoy the identity of the new project opportunity (you don't want to just give up and sell it do you?). Sorry that was the best pep-talk I coould muster at 4 a.m.

The 71E- sporty, thin, lightweight, silver and more silver(ooh-ahhh), very retro...........
The SC ducktail- quirky looks(but works very well), modern, heavy, low pull, luxurious.........
The Targa- same as the E but top-down summertime breeze, drive-in-theatre delight, and........some details that changes it's character to suit you.
Please dont cut it up with flares, cage and 'glass though. Someone decades from now will thank you.

good job keeping it...you'll be glad in the end...

If it were a manual car, I'd say dump it...the fact that it's a sporto...keep it.

I'd have been banging on your door to get it to atlanta if you didn't keep it.

sjd

Mark, if you pass on the the restoration will someone please restore this softie. I tried so hard to find one several years ago with no luck. I would love to have one and have collected most of the parts for my conversion. A 71 soft-top is a rare car. While it may not be the most collectable in terms of money, It is to some of us for its cool factor.

I know that projects can be expensive, time consuming, and a pain in the butt. The joy of turning the key for the first time, putting it in gear, and completely being engrossed in the experience that is all 911 is what its all about.

Jamie

Mark,

Keep it original and do a full restore...sell it at next years Barrett-Jackson for $140,000.

:)

Only if Don Johnson drove it on to the stage. :rolleyes:

Remember that the original engine and tranny (the deal didn't work out) are gone, so a full on matching #'s restore will never happen. How would that affect any of your decisions?

Mark,
I say do the late car early body thing with the soft window.

R Gruppe it.

I don't like targas - except soft windows.

Don't molest it - a LWB sportomatic soft window is pretty cool!

If you plan to use it, drive it, and keep it for a while, then it is worth paying 18-20K to restore. Heres why.

You'll pay at least 25-30 K for a comparable "fun" new car if not more. In five years no matter how you take care of it it will be a five year old car subject to normal depreciation.

You restore the softie for 20K and its perfect. You LOVE the car and its unique. You keep it for five years and take the same or better care of it that you would a new car. Then todays 10-12K softie has appreciated some and is maybe woth 15 or more, ( who knows).

You get the idea.

So I say you may be surprised that you might be able to make your investment back and still have a whole lot of fun along the way.

If not, how much do you want for it..... I have this early T engine sitting in my garage just waiting for a project!

Restore it to original. If not, give it to someone who will.

John

Values of open 356's vs. their coupe counterparts were dead even for a long time. I don't need to remind all of you of the huge delta in price between the two now.

I'm a confirmed coupe guy, but I can certainly see the value of early Targas rise over the coupes, just as the 356's have. If you look at nearly *any* collector grade sports car, regardless of original production numbers, the top down (or off) model is worth more than the coupe. It is only a matter of time for 911's, and I'd imagine that the soft-window cars will lead that charge due to their relative rarity.

Whether or not Mark's particular car will be in the absolute front of the price pack several years from now, I don't know. But I'd imagine that this is one of the more viable non-"S" longhood restoration projects in terms of future value.

I guess it all comes down to how much you realistically need to put in it to do it right and how long you see yourself keeping the car. If you get in the middle of the restoration and need/want to bail, you will probably get hurt just like bailing out on any restoration.

FWIW,

Dr. Brad
'83 SC Coupe
SCWDP member who digs longhood soft window Targas

you could invest $20k, or you could do it for $10K just as well, if you have the skills to do all the labor yourself. just buy wisely and take your time finding good deals. find a good running engine for cheap, that can just be cleaned up and used as is. the body prep and paint is the cash killer. but first, it needs to be totally stripped and scraped and prodded to be sure that it's solid enough to be worth restoring. it would be interesting to raise it on a rack to see if the doors can still be opened and closed. some of those old rusty targas sag so bad when lifted, that the rear door gap increases to an inch or more, and if you managed to open the door, you wouldn't be able to close it. from the looks of it, with the interior having been exposed to the weather for a long time, rust may be a major problem. but then it was in texas. does it rain a lot in texas? i've heard about the floods.

Sell it to someone who is looking for a Targa soft top to restore and is willing to put the money and time into it. If you gut it and use the parts for an SC something then you can claim to have been able to eliminate an older model that will eventually be extint.

The long hood soft window on a later chassis doesn't work. It will still FEEL like a later car, lacking the free-revving, nimble handling classic feel. Restore this chassis rather than cutting it up. Much better to source a used 3.0 liter with 915 tranny to drop in the current chassis if you need the power.

I think the question is, restore it to stock (even though the #s won't match) or do some upgrades. I REALLY like the idea of a lightweight spyder with roll hoop, very R Gruppe, with a hot 2.4 engine. Nice, lightweight magnesium case.

Another cool alternative would be more of a daily driver feel with a 2.7: still magnesium but more usable torque, good seats and carpets, nice stereo.

However, while a soft window it is still a targa and I think the leaks were a no-cost factory option on all targas. So it's probably more of a fair-weather fun car, so you won't miss the niceties.

I say, 2.4 liter R Gruppe!!!

I'd say that the combo new/old sounds great. You know that this car is not going to be viewed as a collectible due to missing engine, etc. So, if you're going to enjoy the project, and end up with a car that looks great and that you enjoy owning, carry on!

Brad, I just barely caught that. Great sig line!!

These suggestions/ideas are exactly what I'm after. Keep them coming.
Thanks,
Mark

Mark:

One other thing: You might own the oldest Cab around if you cut the Targa bar off! I almost went that route with all of the grief I had to get my window back in.


(Just kidding about the Cab idea)

I think if you are looking for a project to do that you will look forward to working on then go for it. And...if you love the way it turns out, feel great about the job you've done and never want to sell it...then you have only made gains...no losses. :)

What was the reason for rescuing this particular car from that field?

I thought it was because this car has a unique niche in Porsche 911 history. Stray from that and this car is just another rusting hulk that makes a lousy investment of time and money.

So what does this talk of R Gruppe, 3.0 , 915 blah blah have to do with this car?

Don't get me wrong. I love a 911 Hot Rod. I'm building one myself. It's just that this car is a lousy starting point for one of those cars. The smart money would be to turn this car for a small profit and buy or trade for a better starting point for a Hot Rod. Thoughts of a 72' Silver T Coupe that just got a fresh coat of black paint come to mind.

P.S. As far as collectables go. Whether it's cars, antique furniture or whatever the most valuable items are always "bone stock" as someone put it to me. Matching numbers are nice but the history is what really makes a collectable valuable.

I see it as a passion thing. Either your gut is telling you to do it or it isn't. Economics ususally doesn't play too much in the decision.

My question is... What's the big deal with soft window Targa's anyway? Seems to me you can convert any Targa to a soft window by taking the glass out and getting a vinyl one put in. How come nobody's doing that?

Mark, you've got a car with a 3.0L engine and a 915. In Porsches (if I owned multiple car), I'd like something different in each one. The 3.0/915 has its character, just as much or possibly less than a 2.2T/Sporto drivetrain. I think it'd be fun to do that kind of restoration. Don't cut up the body and add flares-the early 911 Targas seem (to me) like a female bodybuilder when they do that. It looks like that car also had steel wheels when it was stock, so that would look more 356/912 than 911, which differentiates it further from your SC. It's just one off those rare occurrences of options (Targa/T/Sporto) for a year that didn't have but probably 50 SW targas. Let me know what you're going to do with it (hint, hint) but if you're going to keep it and are committed, pull through.

My 2C, Scott

There's a 356 coupe sitting OUTSIDE of a barn a few miles from my house. It's been there for at least 15 years. I'm sure it's full of rust, but it looks good from the end of the 200 yard driveway. ;) I've considered making an offer on it, disassembling it and reassembling it in my basement as a video game platform. Install some kind of widescreen monitor in the windshield, hook up the steering wheel and pedals electronically, Xbox it, Janis Joplin livery, etc .... Maybe an option for the 71? :D -- Curt

The entertainment center is one option. Or as a lady friend suggested, we could turn it in to a very cool planter box and set it by the pool.

As a Targa owner (and someone who poured bucks into a 1954 MGTF basketcase restoration) I appreciate your problem. I always opt for saving a car as valued as a Porsche but I sure like the idea of a soft window Targa of any year. If the base car is past restoration why not a recreation? So what if the bumpers are a later style.

THIS BARN AVAILABLE!
612-722-1214

<i>"a very cool planter box and set it by the pool."</i>

Well, the softwindow <u>would</u> make a nice greenhouse .... -- Curt