Replacing injector seals and sleeves on 5 and 6

[schoward]

Due to two different occasions over the past few years injector seals and sleeves were replaced on all cylinders except #5 and #6.

#4 was done individually by a shop 4 years ago to cure a sudden and pervasive air leak that started causing a put put piffing out the exhaust. Not so bad cost wise and car was done in a day or two.

I had a poor running issue come on last summer and found 1-2-3 to be leaking significantly using carb cleaner. Replaced them all myself which fixed my issue perfectly. Despite simple instructions, like many, it became a painful process that involved me removing the runners etc fishing injector sleeve crumbles out of the chamber etc, etc. Took me 4 months to get it done with winter and just other life commitments and project sucked overall. But all went back together nice and fixed my problem and car running great again. High satisfaction level. Textbook results.

I now find signs of SLIGHT leakage on 5 and 6 using carb cleaner again (heavy douses of it change the engine note) and wondering for #5 and #6:

1. Try to fix myself in car with lessons learned from 1-2-3 (although I am not pulling CIS or runners as that side is a much different animal in terms of the ability to get runners off individually).
2. Leave it for awhile until it makes car run different.
3. Have a shop do it (I have a good one that did it well on #4)

At most I could drop motor down a little but not sure what that would really buy me. Not in a position time-wise or tool wise to pull the entire CIS or motor.

Thoughts?

[Trakrat]

The real question is.. can you even fit yourself back far enough? I would imagine if you have some good lights positioned.... and mirror of some sort (especially for cylinder 6)... and are a very patient person... then try fixing it yourself.

You'd obviously have to move the AC compressor out of the way, as well as maybe removing the oil filter just give yourself more wriggle room.

[75 911s]

the complete CIS can be removed in 30 min assuming you don't have AC or a heater blower.

I would remove the CIS in car and replace on a workbench. You can replace the injector and the injector o ring without removing the CIS, but if you want to replace the injector sleeve and the o-ring for the sleeve then you need to dremel out the tabs in the top of the runners. I don't see that happening on#6 while in the car.

While the CIS is out you can refresh the other rubber parts and clean it really good. makes the engine bay look amazing.

[Bob Kontak]

Do you now have the putt putt piffing out of the exhaust? Does not sound like it.

Did all of the sleeves crumble on 1,2,3? Did you dremel the punched stake? I'm sure you did. Just have to ask the obligatory questions.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by 75 911s

the complete CIS can be removed in 30 min assuming you don't have AC or a heater blower.

Not with an 81. It's harder. #6 runner to head bolts are a bear.

You can remove an entire engine in one hour based on posts I have read. Depends on the person.

[schoward]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Do you now have the putt putt piffing out of the exhaust? Does not sound like it.

Did all of the sleeves crumble on 1,2,3? Did you dremel the punched stake? I'm sure you did. Just have to ask the obligatory questions.

No - car is running pretty darn good Bob.

I used a micro file and smoothed off the stakes but lesson learned i probably could've done a better job which maybe made them a little more stubborn. They didn't all crumble but in my haste and silliness trying to get them out I did things that caused a little chunk or two to break off. Then I got paranoid and pulled the runners to make sure I got any debris out of the chambers.

[schoward]

Originally Posted by Trakrat

The real question is.. can you even fit yourself back far enough? I would imagine if you have some good lights positioned.... and mirror of some sort (especially for cylinder 6)... and are a very patient person... then try fixing it yourself.

You'd obviously have to move the AC compressor out of the way, as well as maybe removing the oil filter just give yourself more wriggle room.

I feel I could get there, which makes it tempting. Hell, I did the front one on the other side with about the same level of work as the rest. A little rougher on the back but I did it.

[gazzerr]

#5 is doable. #6 is a total pain. I refurbed the whole CIS so I removed the whole thing and tapped them out from behind on the bench. Partial or total drop is best. You can do it without a partial drop but it's back breaking. You can get to that #6 bolt with a small 1/4 inch swivel socket and extension from the front (facing) but the #5 runner has to be out of the way.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by schoward

but in my haste and silliness trying to get them out I did things that caused a little chunk or two to break off.

You don't want to read all the haste and silliness stories this board could offer up.

I say do it yourself. Pull the compressor and bracket one night. Next day get a few tools that might eliminate the nub from the punch stake. A right angle air powered die grinder with a small circular stone could do the trick.

I am not sure of the best way to re-stake.

For hip pocket information. I had the putt putt piffing exhaust for a while. I used carb or brake cleaner and I found that leaky injector seals would send the RPM one way and a leaky intake runner to head would send it the other. What I do know for a fact is that I re-seated the bolts on the #4 runner to head and the piffing stopped. It was like a girly-girl continuous backfire at idle.

[schoward]

Thanks all for the perspectives. I couldn't stop myself.

Had new injectors and seals, sleeves on hand. Swapped out injector and seal on number 4 (sleeve done previously). #5 took maybe one hour total. Filed off stakes and hit it with Wd-40 and got some wiggle going on the sleeve with injector still in place. With some wiggle and douses of wd-40, the sleeve came out clean with little fight.

On to #6 when I have the energy and car is driving well so I want to enjoy the summer months vs having the car apart in the garage. I noticed for some reason number 6 runner looks pristine with either one or no stakes punched compared to all others which had the three perfect stakes. A few more lessons learned this time.....

1. Old hard injector seals will likely keep the injector firmly in the sleeves. File off the stakes, lube it up with some spray lube and get some movement and things are more likely to come out clean.
2. I soaked the injector seals in gasoline but left them in there for 2 days. No good. Those things ballooned up like puffy dunkin donuts where they wouldn't go in. Visually much fatter than seals out of the package. Good idea but too much of a good idea.
3. A little light lithium grease applied with a finger on the runner hole and sleeves (light film) helps everything slide home with little effort.

[Dr J]

You can create stakes again by using a center punch. An automatic one works as well. Get close to the edge but not too close.

[Steve F]

Originally Posted by Dr J

You can create stakes again by using a center punch. An automatic one works as well. Get close to the edge but not too close.

Yup, This^^^ Works perfectly!

[schoward]

Took a shot at #6 today and success. Had the sleeve and injector out clean in about 20 minutes then the rest was easy reassembly. Didn't do any engine drop, in fact I didn't move or remove one thing.

Again, had success filing off the stakes with a micro file. Some light scratching takes them off. I used a small thick magnet (like a super thick refrigerator magnet )to grab any filings) then hit it with penetrating oil and quickly got some up down movement in the sleeve. Once that happens you are home free. Injector in place with the rock hard seal takes the sleeve out with it. I used a 14mm wrench with a 12 stacked on top of it to pry the injector up.

Restaked with a small center punch (has hex end that fits in a socket) attached to a long extension (with a little tape to keep it from falling out of the socket). Couple whacks gave me two nice stakes and that's good enough for me.

This is totally doable. Key is getting the stakes clean then getting some sleeve movement going with some spray oil. In all cases for me , as long as stakes cleaned off, the old hard injector seals will keep the injectors in the sleeves and you can use the injectors to pry up and pull out the whole sleeve and injector together.

Car runs nice and mixture checked out the slightest bit richer which makes sense as using carb cleaner continually showed a leak on #6. I will see if it needs an adjust with more driving. It is so slight. A test drive and spray of carb cleaner on the seals revealed no change so hopefully good to go. Formerly, with a dwell meter hooked to the test port I could hear and observe the change when I would spray carb cleaner on the seals/sleeves when running.

Anyways posting to close this out and hopefully leave a tip or two.