Upgradeing 3.0, what camshaft?

[avorkinn]

Hi,

The comping winter I have plans to upgrade my 3.0 CSI engine, located in my RSR LookAlike.

3.2 shortstroke, 10,5:1 compression, Mahle syl / JE piston.
Complete Management set from Clewett Engineering
Power goal, 270-280 hk.

Most used on road, rare on the track,

What camshafts to use?

[T77911S]

nice looking car.
orange? I love orange and green

[NY65912]

I loved the DC-40 cams when I had a similarly worked 3.0 with PMO's.

[sc_rufctr]

I've read many time the 964 cams work really well with 3.0 CIS cars. Not sure about a 3.2 & after market EFI!

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by avorkinn

Hi,

The comping winter I have plans to upgrade my 3.0 CSI engine, located in my RSR LookAlike.

3.2 shortstroke, 10,5:1 compression, Mahle syl / JE piston.
Complete Management set from Clewett Engineering
Power goal, 270-280 hk.

Most used on road, rare on the track,

What camshafts to use?

Avorkinn,

What specific "complete management set from Clewett Engineering" are you considering? Could you share what do you have in mind? Are you going to twin-plug your heads? A simple way to achieve your goal with less headaches is to mimic an existing running system that has been already been successfully proven or tested.

I had the opportunity to build a 3.0 engine to produce higher horsepower (270 plus Hp based on dyno test results) and it was not that cheap. The tuning and calibration took much longer than the mechanical rebuild itself. The engine has seen the track and very satisfied with the result. However, if your goal is to have a 270~280 Hp from your 3.0 engine consider putting a complete factory 3.6 engine instead. Even if you do the work yourself, you are not saving much considering the cost of machining, parts, tuning costs, etc.

Tony

[scott_rogers]

I did the 964 cams in my 3.2 SS and they are sweet. Fast from 0-60 with lots of low-end torque. Don't have experience with other Cams, but these worked for my setup which appears to be similar to what you are about to do.

I used the SSI heat exchanger and M&K muffler to round out the package and now the car sounds like a bat out of hell when its screaming down the road.

[Nux]

I have a 3.2SS with EFI as well. Planning on 993SS cams to go with my ITB. I bit hotter than 964 cams. According to John Dougherty, this should be a very nice combination.

[jpnovak]

There are many cam options. It will come down to your usage conditions and what driving characteristics you want out of the car. You will not h ave any valve clearance issues with the JE pistons.

For example a stock 3.0 will have great low-end torque and then tend to go flat above 5500rpm. It is well matched with the tall, stock 915 gearing.

If you want more "area under the curve" and the rpm band is good then there are cams that will have more lift, more airflow and therefore more torque with the same rpm band.

If you want more top-end while maintaining the low-speed torque then you add exhaust side duration and lift. In some cases you have much more intake duration and lift. An example upgrade here is the 964, DC20, 20/21 or similar cam.

If you want a high-rpm screamer than you can add more lift and duration as well as narrow lobe center. Examples here are DC40, DC43, DC60, etc. Don't put too much cam if you are driving on the street.

Since you are planning EFI (assuming ITB as well) I would suggest to keep the cam lobe center higher than 106 degrees. Any lower and it becomes more difficult (not impossible) to get a good MAP signal for the EFI to determine load.

Think hard about how you want to car to run and what you want to change compared to the current motor and then call a good cam grinder for recommendations based on your engine build spec. There are a few good answers and a whole lot of bad choices.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by jpnovak

Think hard about how you want to car to run and what you want to change compared to the current motor and then call a good cam grinder for recommendations based on your engine build spec. There are a few good answers and a whole lot of bad choices.

Outstanding post.

FWIW: Bruce Anderson says (probably Matt Monson too??) adding a shorter gear set feels like 50hp. Just saying. That's a 35,000 Krone ($5k)"FWIW" I believe, given new gears.

[avorkinn]

Hi again,

Yes my plan is to have twin plug and also need to port the intake up to 39-40mm, I have the latest tops with 34mm intake, 204hk.

The car will mostly be used on the road, it is located in a 1973 RSR LookAlike, my toy, I want the engine to be close to the original RSR engine in characteristics.

The xmsn will be geared down, ring and pinion replacement.

I have been looking at this management set,
Individual throttle body kit - TEC-gt200 dual plug [9008-04] - $7,095.00 : Clewett Engineering, The complete solution for ignition & fuel injection

On other forum I have been advised about WebCamshafts 120/104, this from one who has close to the setup I will have.

Any comment?

[evan9eleven]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Outstanding post.

FWIW: Bruce Anderson says (probably Matt Monson too??) adding a shorter gear set feels like 50hp. Just saying. That's a 35,000 Krone ($5k)"FWIW" I believe, given new gears.

A bit OT but labor costs a fortune over here and we have 25% sales tax. Probably more like 50,000 NOK all in, half of which is just the new gears. I just paid for my new 2nd, 3rd, and 4th today, so thats how I know.

Thanks for the post Jamie, awesome info on camshafts for those of us also looking at upgrades, with no clue what all the options entail. Cool stuff.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by evan9eleven

A bit OT but labor costs a fortune over here and we have 25% sales tax. Probably more like 50,000 NOK all in, half of which is just the new gears. I just paid for my new 2nd, 3rd, and 4th today, so thats how I know.

Thank you for the lesson. I did not know this and you probably understand. Us Americans only know what we know. I will say that my "estimate" was based off of a post I read 15 years ago so probably pretty stale. Expensive!

I do like all of the cam information. I struggle some with the difference between a 964 cam, which is compatible with CIS, and higher performance cams which pivot the lobes to a more conventional orientation for breathing.

If you remove CIS I don't know why you would want a 964 cam. This is ignorance speaking.

All the best.

[Trackrash]

Once you have decided on the exact intake system you will be using you should talk to John Dougherty AKA camgrinder on this board.

john@drcamshafts.com

With ITBs you would want someting like a DC-40 or DC-60 I would think. Dougherty Racing Cams

[evan9eleven]

Originally Posted by avorkinn

Hi again,

Yes my plan is to have twin plug and also need to port the intake up to 39-40mm, I have the latest tops with 34mm intake, 204hk.

The car will mostly be used on the road, it is located in a 1973 RSR LookAlike, my toy, I want the engine to be close to the original RSR engine in characteristics.

The xmsn will be geared down, ring and pinion replacement.

I have been looking at this management set,
Individual throttle body kit - TEC-gt200 dual plug [9008-04] - $7,095.00 : Clewett Engineering, The complete solution for ignition & fuel injection

On other forum I have been advised about WebCamshafts 120/104, this from one who has close to the setup I will have.

Any comment?

Hei Arild! Flott bil!

I am also going over to EFI this winter, but have decided to get a kit from Al Kosmal at X-Faktory. Al has been amazing at answering all my questions over the last two years and he can put together a kit any way you like (including one that is less expensive, if you like.) I have no affiliation with his company, other then planning to buy a kit. I'm not going to rebuild my 3.0 yet, and unfortunately I don't know much about camshafts, but hopefully Jamie and other experts will jump back in here with some more suggestions.

I'm also about to rebuild my gearbox with shorter ratios, though I haven't decided who will do the work yet. What shop will you use for your upgrades? (PM me if you like.)

evan

[evan9eleven]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Thank you for the lesson. I did not know this and you probably understand. Us Americans only know what we know. I will say that my "estimate" was based off of a post I read 15 years ago so probably pretty stale. Expensive!

No stress Bob. You're talking to another American that ended up in Norway. No lesson intended, I just needed someone else to feel my pain for just having paid for my new gears!

[avorkinn]

Regarding camshaft the Webcamshafts 120/104 is the one for the moment🤔

Evan, I will do the upgrade myself. PM

[jpnovak]

Arild,

the 120/104 is a very high rpm cam. It will certainly simulate the RSR performance you are targeting.

Given the high rpm nature I suggest that you complete oiling mods so the engine will survive at these high rpms. This means extensive balancing of rotating components, cross drill the crank, oil mods to the case, quality port work on the heads, race valve springs, lightweight retainers and keepers. Additionally, you will pretty much need twin plug on the heads while they are off and an ignition system that will support the extra plug.

Welcome to the slippery slope...

In the end it will be a fantastic build as long as you pay attention to the details.

[avorkinn]

looking at the spec I think the 120/104 is a bit sharper then the S cam. I will install turbo oil pump and replace the oil nozzles spraying under the pistons with turbo type.The engine will keep most of the internal parts, therefore approx 7000 will be max, power band, 3500-6500, 280 hk

[jmz]

For the record I like my Elgin Mod S cam on my 3.0 with close ratio gears and 7:31 R/P. It's really fun to roll through the gears. It was carbed for years but is currently EFI about 9.5:1 twin plug motor. Port sizes are about what you are talking about too.

[boy83]

Arild

I have an 83 sc. I had 10.2 Mahle P&Cs installed, twin plugged, TEC3R, Carrera intake, and 120/104 camshafts. On the dyno it made 224 rear wheel horsepower at 6200 rpm, max torque was 201 at 5000 rpm. I have my rpm cutoff at 7000. It gets there quickly.

In hindsight, I should have gone with ITBs. It would have probably made a little more power and be more tractable at low rpm. I think that with the carrera intake, it gets intake reversion at rpms below 3,000 so it's difficult to drive smoothly at low rpms.