Gads - Dropped wooden 1/2 inch x 3 inch dowel down intake runner

[antares]

… well O.K. I dropped a 1/2 inch dia x approximately 3 inch long dowel down the intake runner injector hole on # 2 driver's side today while working on my friends ride .. someone along the way had globbed a mountain of silicone around each injector base instead of no doubt in place of pulling the injectors and putting new O rings on … so had to engage in time and life sucking arts n crafts in order to get the silicon off of each injector … it was spread onto the manifold surface area, the injector head and the fuel line couple … time consuming mess before I could pull the injectors … I was using a 1/2 inch wooden dowel to insert into the runner hole so I could after most all of the silicone was taken off via dental pick and exacto knife use a small shop vac to clean up the site … finished on the passenger's side, then moved over to over to driver's side number one, then onto number 2 when the dowel slipped and fell down into the injector hole and disappeared as it had sat solid on all the previous one … so no valve head to rest onto in number 2 - Yikes ….

O.K. so my first option was is to remove the clamps on number 1 and slide the rubber sleeves back down away from the air box on the intake runners … this was tough as the screw heads were pointed downward but managed to get them out undamaged but wait, you can't remove number one runner because number two's base sets over the top of it … so number two has to be removed however number two can't be removed as it is under number three so until number three is removed … oh did I also add that the standard screw heads are all pointing down … the air box and runners were no doubt installed first then bolted onto the engine … well can't unscrew them, so looks like I'll have to dremel cut the clamps off surgically but probably end up having to get new sleeves and clamps …

However with that said, just wondering if when I remove the runner with all this work will the dowel peg be sitting in the chamber and fished out or could it of possibly dropped down further into the exhaust header … Any thoughts ? - dave

[timmy2]

2-3 hours to pull CIS system off and put it on a bench to go through it properly.
Just a suggestion...

The dowel will be there once you pull the runner off.

[schoward]

I just removed and reinstalled my 1-2-3 runners without removing the CIS last year in the process of doing injector seals. It is a bear but doable.

The sequence is to work in order starting with removing number 1, then 2, then 3, with reinstall the reverse. Remove number 1 then 2 is easier. You will likely destroy the one or both of the rubber air box sleeves in the process so have a couple on hand. You will need intake gaskets and not a bad idea to get couple intake barrel nuts in case you strip them. You will have to literally wrestle the runners off. They will not want to move at first.

Some tips

-remove the warmup regulator and heater parts if applicable
-soak intake runner barrel nuts with pentrating oil a few times before removal
-Some wd40 or penetrating oil on the rubber air box sleeves helps to get them moving as likely they are rock hard.
-Try not to wreck the threads on intake studs when lifting runners off.
-Have a small magnet on hand to grab any metal filings that you may generate before you lift the runners off. I have what looks like a small thick powerful refredigerator magnet on my tool box and it comes in super handy. Plug holes with rags immediately.
-get the genuine Porsche air box sleeves not the OEM
-the victor reinz intake gaskets worked just fine.
-absolutely be sure to torque the intake nuts to spec when reinstalling - I think it was 17.5 ft lbs but check. This is important.

Again this is doable but back breaking. Reinstall is pretty much easy reassembly. Run and check for leaks with fingers crossed.

Scott

[antares]

… thanks Dennis and Scott … lucky for me the runner rubbers are rather new and very pliable … as noted above you cannot lift the #1 runner off because of the integrated molded heal extension that is on
# 2 where the WUR mounts to … and with this setup you can't remove # 2 without first removing
# 3 because it is under #3 because of course someone's uncle Murphy installed all of the original slotted head screws for the clamps upside down when mounted on the engine, i.e. they are pointed down on # 1, and pointed to the rear and placed under #2 and #3 so one cannot access the screw heads. I got # 1 clamp off using a small vise grip on the end threads with thin wood slices between the teeth, took three or four short turns then used my fingers to turn enough to loosen the clamp and spin it right side up and removed. No such luck accessing the others. If one could easily undo all the runners and just lift the entire runner system up and out that would be ideal but only a fantasy, I would have to drop the engine to do that in a ergonomically timely fashion, so apparently my only option is to dremel cut the clamps, and if I can save the rubber sleeves from the blade put some rubber grease on the runners where the rubbers are and slide them back over the runner so I can lift the runner's straight up and out being very careful not to Irish the threads or that will be another arts n crafts funk project … I wanted to get all the parts together before the surgery so went on pelican to buy the clamps but are N/A so will have to call Parts Heaven in Hayward and see what they have on hand unless someone knows where to get the correct original gold cad plated Porsche clamps …. ?

[Steve F]

I'm with Timmy2 on this......do a partial engine drop (15 minutes) take off heater blower and such, WUR and AAV. Unbolt all the rest and get it on a bench. You will thank yourself later that you can see the whole thing fore and aft and know it's healthy, plus the triangle of death can be addressed perfectly. Off in 2 hours or less. You have to wrestle with one crank case breather hose, but it's doable, also lifting it and setting blocks of wood under the runners and access the hose from underneath . Pull the whole thing straight up and "Git er done" Leak check all on the bench. I did mine and could not be happier.

[rwest]

Antares,

Look into a partial drop, I think it's the same for your year as mine; take set screw out of shift linkage, set jack under engine, undo engine mount bolts and lower about 4". Very quick and gets more access.

You'll have way more time in your current plan than just removing the whole CIS. might also be possible to just remove nuts from the intakes and lift the one side enough?

[schoward]

Ok not sure what the molded heal on number 1 you are referring to , as I was going off my stock 81 us version. Best solution may be a partial or full drop then.

[antares]

… O.K. I will consider that and if I do will photo the event for all you photo kinks out there … :') - dave

[antares]

Decided not to do a drop since the air box is new as are all the hoses etc … well got back on it this afternoon, brought the handy bendpak lift up to waist height and continued on with the gentler kinder pointed vise grip method of turning the backwards mounted sleeve screws slowly, turn by turn, but surely until I could spin the clamps and apply a two way screw driver and continued until I could take the small slotted screw bolt out of the clamps. Did the back no. 3 , then no. 2, then no. 1 which was the easiest … had to perform a surgical on no. 2's sleeve to make everything come out O.K. When taking the barrel nuts off of no. 3 the complete studs came out with the nut so any suggestions for when I put them back in ? I could use loctite blue on the threads and bolt it back in with the nut still on however the torque spec would be off … any suggestions … So anyways we all like photos so here are a few action photos taken near the completion of this episode of " Mystery of the sunken Dowel " … stay tuned for more action photos as this " arts n crafts " project proceeds to completion …

[Flojo]

well to "save" that fail a bit: it's now a good option to do a little more cleaning, which I find allways much rewarding and makes a fail forgotten.

[Mike Andrew]

Few more hours and you are back on the road and this fail is on its way to becoming a distant memory...... We have all had them; part of DIY ownership.

[Guardsred911]

Wow!

[911pcars]

Maybe a bit of tissue (or golf tee, longish M6 bolt or equivalent) might be a less hazardous temporary plug.

S

[gazzerr]

I think you'll find if you put some of the rubber airbox sleeve clamps back on with the fastener facing you then the other end of the screw will foul with the engine shroud on the 4, 5, 6 side.

[antares]

great point but I have yet to tackle 4,5 & 6 and if that be the case then I will have to remove the air box … yet in regards to where the screws will face I have checked and believe that no.-3 will be o.k. turned at a 45 degree angle, no.-1 will be o.k. as well, not sure about no.-2 and will check it out tomorrow, however when I was undoing no.-2 last, I swung the clip up and around 180 and it just cleared no.-3 by a hair so we shall see … I may do a partial drop and take the box out to deal with 4,5 & 6 because yesterday, I ran 1,2 & 3 through my progressive barrage of media blasting and should do 4,5 & 6 as well. My media barrage on aluminum consisted of 1st a light dusting of fine garnet 150, followed by a light massage of # 75 crushed glass then # 150 crushed glass, then buffed and peened them out using # 7 then the very fine # 9 glass beads. I have an adjustable uptake manifold slash collector at the base that I designed and installed on my Trinco blaster cabinet which allows me to finely adjust the media being used as to a proper air flow ratio so I can fine tune and adjust on the fly, then change media within 1-minute to another grade or type… So now I am at the point of where I have made the runners look almost new again and removed the old factory original injector inserts by taking a barrel stone on dremel and knocking down the strike imprints which are a means to assure that the inserts stay in place. I then knocked the old plastic inserts up from the bottom with a !/2 inch round wooden dowel which is customary. It is interesting to see that no.-1 had already been replaced at one time but no.-2 & 3 were factory original as no.-1 had the strikes leveled. Also the factory appears to have for extra insurance perhaps, applied a black sealing compound around the upper neck of the insert as well as over the insert rubber seal … So with that said, when I reinstall the inserts I am considering re-striking the rim ounce again to stay the insert from moving upward … Question is, has any of you guys applied an insurance coat of sealing compound like the factory did and if so what have found that works or have you not applied any sealer and just installed the inserts with new rubber O-rings fresh and raw … ? It appears from my test fittings, that the rubber seal if left completely raw n dry when upon inserting the insert into the manifold, it tends to want to ride up and twist upward into the head of the insert, this of course could possibly distort the O-ring and make for an inferior seal … So I was considering applying a very light coat of red rubber grease as can be seen in the photo, so this won't happen … has anyone done this as well … ? So let me hear any of your time tested method(s) of replacing inserts with new seals back into the manifold …. O.K. so here are some more photos where I am at up to this point … trying to decide the best most successful way of reinstalling the inserts …..So let me know what you think ….

[antares]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

Maybe a bit of tissue (or golf tee, longish M6 bolt or equivalent) might be a less hazardous temporary plug.

S

… good point, however I did not want to mare anything up with steel threads … actually the 1/2 inch dowels worked great on 4, 5, 6, and 1 as they were bottoming out on the the valve but this dowel was just a tad too short and as soon as i popped it into the insert hole just I had done with the others, it fell in … next time the wood 1/2 inch dowels will be 6 inches long instead of 3 inches ….. - dave

[antares]

… O.K. decided to do the short " partial drop " and spent from about 3:00 this afternoon till 8:00 just removing the the almost impossible to-get-to inside runner nuts off of 4,5 & 6, removed the Av valve hovering over no-5, actually had to take it off to get to the inside nut on no.5, removed the popes hat over the plate and throttle body along with the 2 hoses that hook into it from behind, and lowered the engine about 5 inches … of course there is all the extension/flex joint combo's one has to deal with on the ratchet side of things … still have yet to deal with the crap hub cab lurking behind the fuel distributor with it's solid hoses and of course will have to invent a method and rubber wrists to get to them as well … oh and the lines coming off of the fuel filter and accumulator that run to the fuel distributor have yet to come off … so along with the non assessable crap hub cap hoses I am probably looking at another 2-3 hours of arts n crafts bs just so I can lift up the runners as those rear hub cap hoses are holding things down … all in all, I would have had the entire engine dropped by now … and very well may still need to do that … dave

[schoward]

Nice work.

When I did sleeves and seals on 5 and 6 recently, I applied a very light film of white lithium grease with my finger to the runner hole and same light film on sleeve and the seal on the sleeve that sits in the groove. Definitely helped everything slide in and seat with low effort (ie pounding). See no downside if used sparingly.

[gazzerr]

Those runners look fantastic! I wish I had a blast cabinet. I put mine in an industrial parts washer and they came up nice but not as nice as that.

I didn't use any sealer and I didn't grind off the stakes. They never used any sealer at the factory. I just put a bit of petroleum jelly on the sleeve o-ring to help seat the sleeve into the injector port with a long socket that's thin at the end and thicker in the body to tap it into place so I wasn't pounding on the top edge of the sleeve. The new ones went in just fine. The stakes sometimes peeled off a little bit of the sleeve at top but I was careful not to tear up the o-ring. It's all air tight and working great.

[antares]

…. thanks guys for the confirmation regarding the use of sealers and lubricating the rubber … , well mine have the black sealer crap smeared on the outer side of the sleeves as can be seen in the photo above which is along side the new sleeve and this stuff is also creamed all along the walls inside the sleeve bore of the runner so if one did not remove the runner all that would drop down onto the valve head area below… did not want to chance it so decided to lift the CIS out, if the bores had been clean I would of not had to resort to this … if the factory did not coat these someone else did upon installation as may or may not be a bad idea, and mine look jurasic old and baked and the rubber seals on 1,2 & 3 are rock hard so no doubt are all the others as well… then to top it off, someone came along and applied goos of silicone all around the base of the insert and injector crown … so that has to get peeled off as well … regarding the staking I read where John Walker advised to 'dremel' these ridges down so the old and new inserts could be R & R'ed and can go back in but if you think about it the 3 factory staked strike marks on the runner opening for the inserts should tell you something right there … so just applying grease on the sleeve rubber and inserting may not be enough to keep them in place "if" one grinds smooth the stakes … so I have decided to not do the dremel routine to 4,5 & 6 an all should be good but on 1,2 & 3 were I already have I will make a stake tool and re-create the slight indentations for added insurance to keep them in check inside their runner bores ...

… yeah thanks … regarding the blast cabinet I had to massage these runners as they were raw to say the least so I am pleased on how they turned out, I am going to only apply poor boys wheel and caliper paste to them as I have used that for quite a while and it holds up … one could clear coat these as I think some do with something like KBS Maxx Clear or similar product … I will update this arts n craps project as things progress … - dave