3.2 engine modification?
 

Since I'm getting ready to remove my engine and start the process of a rebuild on my own...
I'm curious what you all recommend on upgrading?

I would like to keep it as a 3.2... but I would like to improve the internals and make the engine stronger than a stock 3.2. (after I cut my teeth with this car, I'll look at doing a monster build on a 964)

Any recommendation on what I should be looking at?
Any recommendation on a shop I should talk to?


I've reached out to Steve @ Rennsport Systems, but he's likely busy and slow to respond.
I've reached out to Competition Engineering, but never got a callback/response.

You could go with cams, exhaust, ITB's and get plug and play standalone ECU from here: www.facebook.com/vemsporsche. Works with factory sensors.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1506111432.jpg

Head studs. Rod bolts.
Everything else on a 3.2 is pretty strong.

While I recognize your intent to keep it as a 3.2, still think you should consider getting the cylinders bored to accept 3.4l "max moritz" pitsons and hottter (964?) cams -- along with gtc's suggestions of better rod bolts and head studs. This would leave you with a noticeable bump in power without adding too much more to your build. Sal carella is a good resource on this, as he's helped tune motroinc/chips on a few of these.

Already plan on getting Raceware for all replacements on the engine.

Thanks... but I'm not comfortable making permanent changes to the original engine.

Huh? "Permanent" mods includes machining to accept parts not factory-equipped for that MY engine. Other than that, modifications to the basic engine don't have to be "permanent".

If mods are desired but aren't comfortable, then keep it ...... original. Did I misunderstand your objectives?

Sherwood

A good exhaust and a chip will really wake up a 3,2. 964 cams might be worth considering as well. Now if you need new cylinders.....

exactly -- not mods to case, you can keep your original pistons -- if you want 100% original, track down another set of cylinders and keep your p&c in the attic. If you're already tackling the top end and replacing rod bolts, you're already almost there labor/disassembly-wise.

Put back your original p&c and you're back to 100% original

I'm thinking you mean Sal Carceller, who is a remarkable jewel of a resource on these cars. The cams and pistons are a seriously great mod, but Sal makes a 'Chip + Injector' package that uses modern 4 hole injectors (a mist, not a stream for better, smoother combustion) and a chip that maximizes this combustion. Basically plug and play, totally reversible

I put this in my 3.2 with a Euro pre muffler and 'Sport' Dansk single outlet exhaust. These were not required by any means, but Sal will walk you through whatever other bits you're doing and help map the chip accordingly if needed.

He's really unreal. The chip + injector have made my car start quicker, pull harder, burn more evenly (I have an AFM installed permanently to monitor. The package is fantastically balanced.

Sal is conservative; he does NOT claim any more power than say, a Wong chip, only a more efficient chip/injector package with similar power. The entire package is about the same as some ask for chips alone. I give it a thumbs up.

Keep the engine stock, rebuild the heads, put on SSIs and then change (lower ratios) the gears -- 2,3,5 -- of your G50 unit and install an LSD, put on adjustable koni's at each corner, reindex (lower) the car, install a wevo shifter, precision shift joint and wevo black pillow mounts for the engine and gearbox. Getting more power out of the engine costs way more than regearing the gearbox.

I'd think twice on the SSIs for a 3.2 engine. Not sure how you can increase performance with a smaller primary ID (35mm) than your exhaust ports (38mm).

Exactly... boring out the engine to a larger displacement would be permanent.
I'm not sure what parts needs to be replaced or not yet... as I'm still working on getting the engine disassembled.

Unfortunately I'm having a difficult time finding a reputable Porsche machine shop that is willing to take my money to have my parts cleaned, machined, balanced, etc...

3.2 engine modification?
 

Try Ollies in AZ. They are well known and do a good job at a good price. I was happy with their work. They have a price list on their site.
Forgot to mention that it was for my '88 3.2.

Paul

3.2 to 3.4 doesn't involve any boring. You buy another set of P and C and store your originals. Cylinders slip into case.

interesting... tell me more...
I'm guessing there is more to it than just dropping them in though... :confused:

You're the 3rd person to recommend them... definitely giving them a call!!! :D

not really, were you to increase displacement to 3.5, you need to machine the case to accept the bigger cylinders. However, bumping to 3.4 does not require any changes to the case -- it only requires boring the cylinders to accept bigger pistons (and buying bigger pistons). Only other mods would be a) more aggressive cams to take advantage of the additional displacement -- either re-grinding existing cams or buying a new set, and b) chip tuning to best take advantage of added displacement (both things you seem to be already contemplating)

Additional power can be found (through additional advance, etc.) if you were to also twinplug (which would require modification to the heads). However, this isn't necessary if you go with "Max Moritz" style pistons, which are optimized for single plug use.

Again, if you're concerned about reverting to complete originality, seek out a second set of cylinders to bore, hold onto your original cylinders and pistons and you can rebuild back down to your original 3.2 --

Yep. SSI's were designed for 2.7 engines, but also work for 3.0. They aren't for 3.2 engines. However I think I read recently that someone is making stainless steel catless HE's with the 1 5/8" primaries necessary for the 3.2. It may have a been a thread here.

Have you considered swapping in a 3.6 motor, preferably a vario from a 993 (approx 280 bhp)? Total cost including installation may be less than rebuilding the 3.2. And you can store the original engine.

I can tell you that a 3.6 swap is nowhere near the ballpark of a rebuilt 3.2 It used to be, but not anymore.

When i did my 3.2, in addition to the usual wear and tear items...i did the following:
964 cams
Upgraded head studs, rod bolts, valve springs, retainers
headers, sport muffler
custom chip

I also did some WYIT items like lightweight pressure plate, metallic puck clutch (track car), upgraded motor/trans mounts, etc.

Agree. Everything else is strong as hell. I boost the crap out of mine and never a problem.

Your line of credit :D:):D

since the newest 3.6 is now over 20 years old, it too will likely require a rebuild before install -- There are a few exhaust options to consider for a 3.2, including the 993 exhaust (with one flange flipped), rarely8's muffler setup and a more recent addition from germany that CAN run with cats. Each option's $$$ and (other than the new german option) will eliminate cats from the equation, making it not emission-legal.

Fortunately, the rebuild will cost less than buying an entirely new engine, as I'll be doing the teardown and reassembly myself.
Most of the cost will be with shipping the parts out to a machine shop to do the work.

Nonetheless, if I end up wanting to go with something bigger/better... then I'll sell the 911 and move into a 964 or 993.

I'll be looking for a decent exhaust once I get the engine rebuilt.
I had purchased a Fabspeed RSR exhaust, which I have been using on the car.... but won't be keeping it, as their exhaust isn't designed for a 3.2 (and also had a bad experience with them and would rather not be reminded of it)

You drop your motor. You remove the cam towers and heads. You take out your existing pistons and cylinders. You fit a set of max mortiz style pistons on new cylinders. You can use a set of 3.2 cylinders bored out and replated.

You attach the new pistons to the existing rods, slip on the new cylinders, bolt it all back together, bam....3.4

And your original P&C are intact and unmolested.

Research the 3.2 to a 3.4 build. Lots of info out there.

You may also want to consider the following:

1) Supertec Performance head studs- they are far cheaper than raceware or arp. Henry has a really good product that's been tested on many race and street cars. He also has good support. No affiliation, just happy customer.

2) If you have Alusil cylinders, like I did, Ollies can tell you if they are still good, and hone them for you if necessary. Otherwise you can get them nikasil plated; You'll need new rings and maybe pistons if you do.
Or, for roughly the same money, you can get new Mahle p/c set.

My 2cents.

Paul

A couple of years ago I was somewhat in the same position. We were tuning an installation of Sal Carceller's MAF conversion on an '88 3.2 and as we got into it it became obvious that at 70k on the odo the valve guides were a bit sloppy. At that time Ollies had a 10 week backlog. Sal suggested Bob Farmer Automotive (800-213-6373) After some instructive conversations with Bob we sent him the heads for the valve job plus matching on the flow bench. Also used his custom ground 964-ish cams. A bunch of other stuff as noted by others--Supertec head studs, new rings, and the SSI headers.

The car is setup for touring, not track work. So low and mid range torque and right-on throttle response were primary aims. The high gas velocity resulting from the smaller diameter tube of the SSI headers worked to our advantage here. Not my choice if I was still young enough for the fun of track days. Hole shots are great fun! 911s are not supposed to step out like that.

They still have a 10 week backlog... or more, as they mentioned that as race season ends, a lot of owners will be sending them their parts for maintenance over the winter months.
I'm not in any hurry though... as I have other projects that car needs done, and the engine being out that long will give me more time to do some other work.

So what did you do to setup the car? I originally had planned on having more power at the top end... but after experiencing it, I realize that my driving style (and if I do auto-x) would require me to have low and mid range power.

Basically the sum of the changes enabled the engine to breathe better. Bob Farmer has a lot of experience with head flow work proven with dyno verification. The head flow work includes mods to the ports and I suspect some tweaks to the shape of the combustion chamber. Going to Sal Carceller's MAF FI takes the AFM's "barn door" out of the intake air flow. The stock AFM works on the measurement of air volume, the MAF measures air density. The SSI headers helped with good gas velocity in the low and mid range where I drive. And I suspect Farmer's cams were complimentary to the gas flow improvements. No changes to the CR or displacement.

OK... I'm looking at maybe going with the Euro spec for the 3.2
However, I'm confused as to the compression needed... (Wayne's book says Euro spec is 9.8:1, but our host says its 10.3:1) ???
I think I've narrowed it down to 2 different piston sets from our host... but the price difference is HUGE... maybe someone can tell me the difference???
Piston and Cylinder Set PS98010 - Mahle-Motorsports - PS98-010 | Pelican Parts

Piston / Cylinder Set 990174915 - Mahle - 99-0174-915 | Pelican Parts

The 9.8 to 1 set is the 3.4l conversion.

Is your motor apart? Basically it comes down to two things.

How much is your budget?

What do you want to end up with?

IF you have Mahle Nikasils that are in spec, put new rings in and call it a day. If not bore, replate, JE pistons. Or new P&C set if you want to stay stock and spend the money and stay completely original.

trakrat -- you linked to piston AND cylinder sets -- As trackrash indicated, if your pistons/cylinders are in good shape, re-ring and you're set. If you're looking to go with higher compression ration pistons but not bump displacement, there should be no reason to replace cylinders. If you want to go up to 3.4 liter (going from 95mm diameter pistons to 98mm diameter pistons), you'd need to get your cylinders bored and replated to accept the bigger pistons, but shouldn't need to replace the cylinders unless they're damaged

Euro spec for the 3.0L SC is 9.8:1. Euro spec for the 3.2L Carrera is 10.3:1

You'll also want your ECU corrected to reflect the Euro configuration. Note that the Euro cars have no catalytic converter and therefore no oxygen sensor.

Is piston to valve clearance more of a concern with the Euro motronic pistons? Not sure I've ever seen it discussed.

Pelican's price for those 98mm pistons and cylinders is way out of line. Pretty easy to find them for $1500 less elsewhere.
Also, the ARP hardware is significantly less expensive than Raceware, and even slightly less than Supertec.

Stock compression is 9.5
Going to the European Pistons and Cylinders brings compression up to 10.3:1 (all things being equal).

I've been reading threads on here that some say you need to go with a twin plug if you go over 10:1 compression.

These European pistons and cylinders are 95mm. I'm not sure what the stock size is?

I guess my question is, with the increase in compression, I'm guessing the piston head is taller? I'm trying to figure out what adds to the compression... and wouldn't you need to make some changes to cams to keep the valves from hitting?

There's no issue with piston-to-valve clearance with the Euro spec. Heads and valves and rods abs compression distance of the pistons are the same as USA spec. Only difference between the two is the done volume of the pistons. Both USA spec and Euro spec are the same 95mm bore size

You don't need twin plug for Euro spec. Obviously the original 3.2 Euro cars are single plug. You just have to be diligent is making sure you use the best, highest octane pump gas available in your area