My Experience with Chuck at Redline Automovtive in Arizona

[NewPorsche91132]

So, I'll start off by saying other people may have a different experience with Chuck and Redline, but I want to lay out what happened with me, especially since I've seen his name thrown around the boards recently, sometimes in terms of selling certain items.

So, about 2 years ago, I purchased a 1969 Porsche 912 from Chuck. I was on the phone with him several times in which he assured me 1) he would be rebuilding the engine and 2) that the car was in very good shape.

He even went so far as to send me photos of the parts he would be using. I also checked him out on the Porsche 912 BBS. I also talked to a Porsche Shop in SoCal he did business with that said he had never had an issue with him.

What happened next with me has taken its toll on my wallet and my love for P-Cars.

First off, the car showed up and immediately had not only carb issues but the accelerator peddle died within a week or so of getting it. I had to get the pedal replaced and also took the carbs to get checked.

When the carbs were checked, I was told by my local wrench (Daniel at Otto's in Venice) that the carbs were totally done and would have to be rebuilt, this is inspite of chuck assuring me he had redone the carbs himself.

When my car was in the shop, Daniel also noticed there was piston slap the engine was leaking oil all over the place. I ended up having to do a top end rebuild (5k) in addition to the carbs. When Daniel took the pistons out, he mentioned to me they were totally worn and they were not something he would have put into the car. He also mentioned there were several areas where the engine rebuild, in his opinion, looked rushed.

In Chuck's defense, he did admit that wrong carbs (old ones, as he said) were put on the car and he agreed to reimburse me for the cost of the carb rebuild - however, it took me threatening legal action to actually get the payment out of him. He also said I could ship the car back to him and he would look at the oil leaks and do work on the engine if necessary. However, at this point, I had lost all confidence in Chuck and so had Daniel redo the engine on his own. At the time, I should have done a total rebuild, but I didn't.

Over the course of the next few months, I noticed a done of non-disclosed issues with the car - the door pockets were screwed into the door frame and the pockets were basically shot, the wheels on the car were the incorrect size, all the glass on the car had issues which would require replacement, the wrong battery was put into the car which eventually caused the battery to drip an unknown substance, etc.

The most painful piece was, about 5k miles later, the engine eventually failed. At that point, I took the car to Mistress in Silverlake where Tom and Koko told me the failure was because of an issue in the bottom end (which Daniel at Otto's DID NOT TOUCH) and they suspected it had happened during the inital rebuild.

To get the engine redone in total, it was a pretty penny, in addition to the top end that Daniel had done.

Now, it's my fault for not just doing the whole thing when Daniel did the top end.

However, I think you can see my entire experience with Chuck and Redline has been less than satisfactory.

Now, the one thing every poster here has warned about is buyer beware. Yes, I should have had another independent Porsche shop take a look at it. However, I trusted Chuck based on feedback I got from another board and the fact he continually sent me photos of the rebuild.

Now, I'm not sure if Chuck is even at Redline anymore. He told me my 912 was the last P-car he was going to do - however, he did then a year later post a p-car on Bring a TRailer, so maybe he decided to do another after me? maybe....

Anyway, I want everyone to be aware of my experience. I'm not saying you'll have the same experience, but it's something to be aware of before you do business with Chuck.

I can only wish (as does my pocket book) that I hadn't been so trusting of a man that told me he was going to take care of me.

[john walker's workshop]

Remember, it's 50 years old and nothing on it is new any more, but you knew that. The 2nd guy upon seeing all the issues, really should have spent another 1/2 hour and done a complete inspection. Unfortunate all around.

[NewPorsche91132]

With all due respect, what the mech I took it too should have done pales in comparison to what Chuck didn't disclose on the car, which is the original point of the thread.

Also, people have been trying to bully me on here which isn't very appreciated when it comes to my trying to report on the service I got there.

To the people that have reached out and said they've had similar experiences, I beyond appreciate the support.

Hopefully this expensive lesson doesn't happen to other people.

[Matt Monson]

Never even heard of the guy. Only Redline Service I know of is Mark Bixen, which is Pete Z's old business. They are in LA. I'm sorry to hear that people were rude with you. Maybe they misunderstood and thought you were talking about Mark's shop.

[LakeCleElum]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Never even heard of the guy. Only Redline Service I know of is Mark Bixen, which is Pete Z's old business. They are in LA. I'm sorry to hear that people were rude with you. Maybe they misunderstood and thought you were talking about Mark's shop.

A quick interWeb search shows Redline Auto in Tuscon, Mesa and Phoenix.....Maybe be more specific and not paint them all with a broad brush?

[Marc Bixen]

To ALL, For everyones knowledge, Red Line Service Tucson, Az. HAS NO ASSOCIATION WITH Red Line Service in Los Angeles. Last I checked Automotion had 9 shops named Red Line in California alone. Make no mistake, we are the original Red Line Service, Started by Pete Zimmermann in 1975, authors of "The Used 911 Story". Thank you Matt. Many have copied, none can duplicate. NewPorsche91132, So sorry for your experience, we've had a bad experience too, besides our name, he even copied our business card.
'Nuff said.

[NewPorsche91132]

Marc,

For what it's worth, I've only heard amazing things about you from a couple of Porsche guys I know. I'm in LA and, had I known about you before this disaster with my 912, I might very well be using you.

The Redline I'm referring to is this one -

Redline Service | Porsche Service, Racing, and Restoration.

I know they still post here under a different name, but when I've previously brought them up before, the person running their Pelican account has threatened to get me banned from the boards.

[NewPorsche91132]

Actually, on the website, it says you can still contact Chuck, so I'm assuming he's still there.

Again, you may not have a similar experience with him that I had (though others on this board have told me they were not satisfied with their service) so I more wanted to put my experience out into the world.

[manbridge 74]

Just curious, but did they give you an itemized inspection sheet saying, for example, the heat works but it doesn’t? That would be bad. Or was it a general, we think the car is pretty good for its age? Less bad but squirrelly for sure.

I ask because the inop list for most old 911s that come my way is HUGE. I like to live with them for a day or two to catch everything but that’s not always possible.

Best of outcomes to you....

[NewPorsche91132]

manbridge 74

There was not a checklist, but he sent me a walk around video as well as going over with me, several times, everything about the car. He also promised me a list of all parts used in the engine build that he did not supply when the car was delivered and then never supplied at any point after, despite my asking for it.

Honestly, after the top end rebuild, he quit talking to me at all. In fact, with the carbs, I had to threaten legal action to get the payment he promised me after he stopped responding to my emails.

I'm going to get the car sorted, but it's now going to take me paying for a condition one car when all I wanted was a reliable driver I could fix minor things one over the course of time. My plan was to slowly redo the interior and teach my self Porsche maintenance on it, not have to spend as much for a cherry 912 for what will ultimately never be better than a high condition 2 car.

Again, part of it is on me for trusting someone instead of having a PPI done.

Hopefully having this conversation in a public forum will cause Chuck to think twice before doing the same to someone else and will be a lesson to others to NEVER TRUST anyone and always have a PPI done by a shop you trust.

Again, if the car has been bought for half as much, I wouldn't mind...however, it wasn't.

[john walker's workshop]

I really don't like doing PPIs for the above reason. You're not going to catch everything.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by NewPorsche91132

When my car was in the shop, Daniel also noticed there was piston slap the engine was leaking oil all over the place. I ended up having to do a top end rebuild (5k) in addition to the carbs. When Daniel took the pistons out, he mentioned to me they were totally worn and they were not something he would have put into the car. He also mentioned there were several areas where the engine rebuild, in his opinion, looked rushed.
...

The most painful piece was, about 5k miles later, the engine eventually failed
...

Sorry to hear of the troubles but given this is the technical forum .... did the top end rebuild at Daniel's fix the piston slap and leaking engine ?

How did the engine fail eventually ?

I will echo what Mr Walker says ... these are old cars and a lot of things in them will need fixing especially when the car isn't driven much prior to your ownership. If it helps at all, you can also pay top dollar for a car which passes all the PPI tests you can muster and yet have no assurance of not having to throw $$$ at it in short order.

[NewPorsche91132]

Pmax,

I hear you on all fronts. My issue is not the fact I have to do work on the car (I think that's what most of us enjoy) my problem is how the car was under represented on literally EVERY level. If I had known what I was getting into, at least I would have gone in with eyes wide open. Or, I would have bought the car without the engine redone and shipped it down to Benton or taken it to another shop earlier...or I would have bought a different condition car for a better price.

In terms of what Daniel did, it was absolutely top notch. It fixed the piston slap and the carbs worked like a dream.

The car eventually gave up the ghost to an issue in the bottom end. I don't recall the exact issue at the moment (I can check with Tom tomorrow at Mistress when I call in to check on some items I'm now having to order to fix up the interior) but the Mistress diagnosis was that the failure had something to do with the initial rebuild and nothing to do with the work Daniel had done.

I would highly recommend Daniel at Otto's or Mistress in Silverlake. Both have been nothing but honest and have worked with me on all the issues I've had. The only reason I started going to Mistress is I moved and so it was easier to deal with going there than going to Venice, CA every day.

[NewPorsche91132]

Also, just realized you asked about the leaking engine.

Daniel could NOT fix the leaking engine and advised me to open the bottom up. At the time, I didn't have the cash as I had already sunk in a pretty penny to the purchase of the car as well as the top end.

In hindsight, I measured once and cut three times. If I had listened to Daniel the second time, I would have had sticker shock and gone into my savings, but at least I wouldn't have had the car die later and could have been sorting all this other BS out now.

The only positive side of this VERY expensive lesson is it has taught me about buying cars in the future and also has helped me learn how to do certain things on my P-Car.

[pmax]

The initial "under representation" of the engine condition and resulting disappointment, yeah, I got that. I believe you made the right decision in not bringing the car back to the seller.

Originally Posted by NewPorsche91132

Also, just realized you asked about the leaking engine.

Daniel could NOT fix the leaking engine and advised me to open the bottom up. At the time, I didn't have the cash as I had already sunk in a pretty penny to the purchase of the car as well as the top end.

In hindsight, I measured once and cut three times. If I had listened to Daniel the second time, I would have had sticker shock and gone into my savings, but at least I wouldn't have had the car die later and could have been sorting all this other BS out now.

You said Daniel also observed a bunch of stuff which does not look right.
Care to share the technical details of what he said ?

Originally Posted by NewPorsche91132

The only positive side of this VERY expensive lesson is it has taught me about buying cars in the future and also has helped me learn how to do certain things on my P-Car.

You've come to the right place. And Mr Walker is THE man to listen to !

[Marc Bixen]

Pre purchase, pre purchase, pre purchase. By a third party independent. An absolute must. I currently have a car in my shop that was purchased in Florida. Pre-purchased by, THE SELLING DEALER. The buyer was told that the car had the following, new water pump, timing belt, balance belt, battery, hood shocks, and other items. This is a 1994 34,000 mile car...... It gets to Ca., dead battery, dated 2010, original hood shocks dated 1993, original water pump, original (probably) timing belt, but, a new balance belt. So someone was in there. Then the client comes to see the car. "Marc, have you tried the convertable top?", "No, I'll let you have the honors.", By the way, to other shop owners, this is the best policy. So the owner pushes the button, the top opens 90%, and there's a large boom,crack, and that's it. No more operation, no more movement, etc. So ALWAYS, have a pre-purchase by a third party independent. We find official dealers are not as thorough as independents, and if you or your shop doesn't know anyone cross country, I recommend calling the PCA zone president for that area, and asking him/her, who is the best independent shop in that area for your inspection.

[Marc Bixen]

Just additionally, there isn't a shop out there that can find every problem with a used car. Even the best of us are limited as to what is visible, and what can be seen in a reasonable time frame. Like John Walker says.
Many shops I know have stopped doing pre-purchases all together.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by Marc Bixen

Just additionally, there isn't a shop out there that can find every problem with a used car. Even the best of us are limited as to what is visible, and what can be seen in a reasonable time frame. Like John Walker says.
Many shops I know have stopped doing pre-purchases all together.

I agree with this^^.

However, nearly everything in the OP, outside of the engine/carb issue, could have easily been identified by a competent inspector who has knowledge of that vintage P-car. The issues mentioned, IMO, are relative minor but still should have been picked up by an inspection and relayed to the buyer.

The engine/carb issue is different. The carb issue was resolved, but the engine situation is clearly a misrepresentation, bordering on fraud--something a competent shop would never do. The seller said the engine would be rebuilt and showed the parts he would use. Nothing was in writing. The extent of the "rebuild" was never described nor was a parts list/build sheet provided. Later inspection revealed a "rushed" rebuild, indicating the engine was actually worked on. The buyer imagined a top-quality, top-to-bottom rebuild. He received a Motormeister Special.

My point is, competent shops should not shy away from PPIs due to situations like this, IMO. The car is 50 years old. Without seeing pictures, it's hard to tell if the issues mentioned are outside the boundary of what constitutes "good condition" and whether or not a PPI should have identified them without direct questions from the buyer.

[NewPorsche91132]

Ossi Blue,

You put it out there spectacularly. Again, the issues with the minor bits and bobs were to be expected. My issue was that NONE were disclosed. If I'm getting a car with a ton of issues, that's fine BUT TELL ME.

The bigger issue for me is the Motor / Carb issue. Nothing was as represented and the fact he never gave me a build sheet, despite telling me he would on several occasions, is my biggest grievance.

There were also other issues like 1) telling me he was going to replace the shocks but when the car showed up, only the front shocks were done and the rear shocks were in bad need of repair 2) the boots were torn up despite me being told they were going to be done, my shop told me it was actually dangerous to drive on them 3) there was damage to the rear drivers side quarter panel that caused the gaps in the rear engine hood to not be totally right something that, had I seen in person, would have been obvious but the pictures were all from an angle so it was harder to see unless you were looking for it. This was obviously never disclosed to me.

[NewPorsche91132]

Just want to BUMP this in case people are thinking about buying from Chuck. I do sometimes see him post on BRING A TRAILER as well as other boards.

Thanks and hope you're all having a great day.