911T Replica!

[steveW]

I am in the process of turning my humble 2.2 911T into a standard flare 'ST' replica.

There seems to be very little info about these lightweight cars available and my main area of concern is the interior, can anybody give me any pointers.

Ultimately I want the weight down to about 900kg (the 2.195cc rally version was 960kg and the 2.247cc racing version weighed in at 840kg).

Eagerly awaiting hundreds of responses!

[jluetjen]

Steve;
The ST's are a pet interest of myself also. Curt Egerer seems to have collected a lot of information that might be able to help. Since the ST's were the immediate predecessor of the RSR's, the interiors seem to follow pretty much the same philosophy. But then I'm no concourse judge! Do a search on this site, I know that some interior pictures of Richie Ginther's Le Mans ST have been posted. I've attached a couple here. There are also excellent pictures of the same car in the book "Porsche Racing Milestones" by Thomas. I know that Wayne carries the book which has lots of beautiful pictures of a lot of different racing Porsche's.

[jpnovak]

I too am in the process of this type of conversion. I have done lots of research on the cars. There is not a whole bunch of info out there.

This topic has come up before and I would suggest using the search function for "ST" or "911ST"

I have a whole bunch of pictures of various cars. Please feel free to email me and I can send you copies. Hope you have a good connection, there are a whole bunch.

It seems as though the ST was built based on about 25(+/-) lightweight chassis. I don't recall the exact number. These had thinner steel in strategic places. The cars were fitted with 2" wider wheel flares as allowed by a change in The Group B(?) rules that allowed wider tires. Its kinda funny how some early pictures show flares that are riveted on a la 934 cars. Very period, very cool! the cars had various engines throughout their career. I think the Short Stroke 2.5 was the most popular.

If you are going to build an accurate replica the biggest thing is the rear flares. Some places say that the rear flares are the same as the RS. This does not seem to be true. I have looked at several pictures and they are most definately different than a rear RS or SC flare. The flares seem to be wider than an RS but not as wide as an RSR. They also have the same rounded lip as the RSR flares. The wheel well shape(side view) is not "squared" as an RS either. I bought some SC/Carrera cut offs and will be rolling a new profile on my english wheel. Look for updates within the next month.

There is a fellow pelican (James Avis) that is restoring a real ST. He may be able to shed more light.

Email me if you have more questions (novak@bloch.nrl.navy.mil)

Dang, all that and I realized you were looking for interior information. I think that they were basically stripped. No glovebox, clock, carpet. Lightweight buckets. Just the basics.

Not really sure about the interior.

Jamie

[cegerer]

Sounds like a great project! As mentioned, the interiors on these cars are basically stripped down of all non-essential equipment. The door panels are pretty much just like the 73 RS Lightweight and/or RSR (plenty of threads on Pelican on how to do those). The seats are the non-reclining Recaro sport units - here's a link where you can find some nice replicas of those:

http://www.bielstein.com/index.html

I'll see if I can find some interior photos. -- Curt

[CamB]

I did a quick search (I like them too and have posted pics I found around the internet). 82SC has plans to make one too. I thought about a conversion, but everyone seems to want to do it, so I figured it is passé .

Not much info on interiors - sorry.

1973 Photo - Did RSRs come like this?

RSR flares -- what wheels/tires?

How to make 911ST in steel??

911st

911ST Reg ST 5704

Early sports/racing seats

[82SC]

i've decided to go with RS rear flares and turbo flares in front with a custom extension down past the light boxes...

I am intersted to hear how everyone elses turns out....

MJ

[Randy W]

Cameron, thanks for all the ST links - reminds me how cool these cars still are. The 911ST interior appears to be basically a stripped down '70-72 style black interior with an early roll bar, no carpeting/radio/glove box lid/rear seats, an early dead pedal, 911R door panels, 10,000 RPM tach, Prototipo or 914/6 steering wheel, and what are referred to as 911ST seats (high backed early Recaro race buckets).

[CamB]

Every time I come across a picture of an ST, I have saved it to my hard drive. I now have about 6mb, but no way of easily posting or hosting them.

Many are already shown or linked to in the pics above, however.

[mgoldleaf]

Ok, I don't know much about the 911ST, but I think that there is a featured article in the May edition of GT Purely Porsche on GT Purely Porsche . As I recall, it was a wonderful article and showcased a beautiful car -- but not a whole lot of interior shots.

/marc

[steveW]

Thanks guys, from what I can gather it seems as though there was never a production run of ST's as such, but rather they were built ad-hoc as and when required.

Am I on the right train of thought?

As for interiors, I assume they recieved the standard lightweight treatment, but with different seats.

I'm going to put an 'S' type spoiler on mine as it seems as though it was developed on some ST's before going into production in August '71 - anyway, my car is a 71 so if the spoiler and its period.

Its my car and I'll modify it to my tastes, but with period type mods.

[jluetjen]

from what I can gather it seems as though there was never a production run of ST's as such, but rather they were built ad-hoc as and when required.

I'ver read conflicting information on this. Apparently about 25+/- chassis numbers were assigned. Other sources mention that in the same breath as they say that only about 12 or so of them were built. An often forgotton point is that the ST's were built with thinner guage metal in the chassis which accounted for some of the weight loss. If Porsche had 25 lightweight bodies made, I'd think that they would want to use them. Unfortunately, I've never seen a list where someone compiled all of the numbers. Starkey discusses the cars in some detail in his book 911 R-RS-RSR, but he didn't go so far as to publish a serial number list like he did for the RSR's. I seem to remember a thread in the last 6-9 months were someone was trying to create such a list. A few that I am aware of are:

Toad-Hall's Monte Carlo T-Car ST
The Richie Ginther ST in California
The Monte Carlo winning ST in Europe
The (questionable) Bromos IMSA winning ST
The Tour de France/Joest 2.5 ST

If there were only 12+/- made, that could be more then a quarter of them!
Apparently some of the difficulties stems from the fact that the factory recorded them in many records as S's, and this is how they were listed in race programs and such. The other thing is that there are also some "TR's" out there which were T's equipped for Rallying. In many respects they were very similar to ST's, but officially they were based on T for the Touring class or rallying rather then the S which was homolagated into the GT class. I suspect that Porsche may have been playing a bit of a shell game to get the cars homologated advantageously.

[barlowdo]

After looking at the URLs shown above it appears to me that the ST also has a long front hood like the pre 69 911/912 cars had. Please correct me if I am wrong, as a week ago I didn't even know what an ST was.

Don

[jluetjen]

Actually - All of the pre-'74 cars had "long hoods". The hoods didn't change from the first 911's until the end of the 73 model year. Starting in '74 they moved to the big bumpers and short hoods.

[82SC]

From the horse's mouth

Bruce Anderson
Excellence Magazine


Porsche was putting most of their factory racing efforts during the sixties and early seventies into the 906, 910, 907 908 and 917 and aside from the 911R left much of the development of the 911 and 911S to their racing customers. In 1967 they built 22 of the very radical 911Rs. The "R" was derived from the German word rennen, which means race. To save weight on these cars the fenders, hood and engine lid, doors and bumpers were made of fiberglass. All of the windows, but the windshield were made of Plexiglas. The oil tank was made of aluminum and mounted ahead of the right rear wheel. The result of these efforts to reduce the weight held the weight to 1830 lbs.

The engine was an adaptation of the racing 906 engine, but based on production 911 engine components that produced the same 210 hp as the 906 engine. 500 cars would have to be built in a 12 month period to homologate the 911R in the GT class and the sales department decided that the general public would not buy 500 race cars, so only the original 22 911Rs were built. Because too few of them were built to homologate them as a production car, not very much was done with the 911Rs themselves, but they showed the way for the future 911 based racing cars. One 911R was fitted with the type 916 engine for the Targa Florio in 1969. The Type 916 four-camshaft version of the 901 engine produced 230 - horsepower, 20 more than the standard 911R engine. The only notable accomplishments for the 911R were establishing a series of 14 international and five world records at the Monza track in 1967 and winning the 1969 84-hour Marathon de la Route.

For 1968 and 1969 Porsche did homolgate racing versions of both the 911S and the 911T models for the Group 3 GT class. The engines for these cars were 2.0 liter racing engines based on the 911R engines, but with the production sized valves of the 911S and 911T engines, 42mm for the intake and 38mm for the exhaust. The 1969 version had a longer wheel base lengthened 2.24 inches by lengthening the rear trailing arms and moving the rear wheel cut outs to the rear, lengthening the wheelbase from 2211mm to 2268 mm. . At the same time fender flares were added front and rear to provide more wheel clearance. On these 2.0 liter cars wheel widths were available from 4.5" to 7".

For 1970 Porsche homologated their 911S in both the Group 3 and Group 4 GT classes. New rules for the GT classes allowed the fender flares to be increased by two inches from the stock configuration to accommodate larger wheels and tires. With the larger 2195 cc displacement the cars were in 2.0 to 2.5 liter class where they could increase the displacement up to the class limit by using a larger bore.

These cars were known by their internal designation the 911ST. From 1970 through 1972 a series of these cars were built for both rallying and GT racing. The first 911STs built to compete in this class had 2.3 liter engines (2247 cc, which was 85 mm bore and 66 mm stroke) and then they were expanded to 2.4 liters (there were two versions 2380 cc 87.5 with mm bore and 66 mm stroke and 2395 cc with 85 mm bore and 70.4 mm stroke) and finally 2.5 liters engine (again their were two versions 2492 cc with 86.7 mm bore and 70.4 mm stroke and 2464 cc with 89 mm bore and 66 mm stroke) The cars built in 1970 and 1971 utilized the 66 mm stroke will most of the later cars built in 1972 used the 70.4 mm stroke.

The 911ST was different from the standard production model in that thin gauge sheet metal was used for the roof panel, for both rear side panels and for the seat pan and interior back and side panels. In the interest of weight saving they also deleted the seat slide supports on the central tunnel, all standard seat belt mounting points, the heater ducts, the ashtray, the glove box door, and the tubes for the front and rear hood latches as well as the front and rear latch mechanisms. The decorative under door and bumper moldings were also left off, as were the fog light recess covers, front torsion bar protectors, the rear torsion bar covers and the passenger side sun visor. Sheet metal joints were not filled, none of the sound deadening material was used and even the paint was kept as thin as possible to help keep the weight down.

They also made parts available to further modify and lighten these 911s’s such as a fiberglass hood, front fenders, and front and rear bumpers, aluminum skinned doors with a steel frame, and Plexiglass for all windows except the windshield which was also available in thinner light glass. Optional 80 liter or 110 liter fuel tanks were available with a large filler neck up through the front hood were available in place of the standard 62 liter tank with its fender mounted filler. A strut tower brace was installed to add stiffness to the front trunk area. For racing 7" and 9" by 15 inch wheels were available.

1970 Rally version of the 2.2 911S was very successful in the Monte Carlo, Swedish rally, Austrian Alpine event, RAC Rally and the winner of the Manufactures Rally Championship.

1970 2.3 liter Circuit racing version of the 911S. These 2.3 racing cars utilized 7 and 9 inch wheels and became a favorite production based racing car for the private racing teams.

1970 2.4 liter light weight ("Proto") prototype built especially for the 1970 Tour de France. 1970 Tour de France. Porsche reduced the weight of this car even further than that of the 911R to 1720 pounds. The engine for the Tour de France car was a 2.4 - liter engine producing 245 horsepower. These extensive modifications were permitted because the car was raced as a prototype rather than as a GT car.

1971 2.2 liter 911S "Safari". The Safari cars were lighter in weight than the production cars, but the biggest difference was in the special preparation for the rigors of off-road racing which included extra reinforcement, raised suspension settings and skid shields. Though the cars were very successful in the East African Safari, they never won this event which is one of the few races in the world where a 911 or 911-based car was eligible that they have not been able to win.

The significance of Dave Morse’s 911ST was that it was the first of what became a number of Porsches that were purchased by Americans prepared and then taken back to Europe to race, mostly at Le Mans. Richie Ginther Racing's All American was an entry at Le Mans in 1971 with Alan Johnson and Elliott Forbes-Robinson as their drivers. Ginther called his 911 ST Sloopy Jr. and Sloop ran with a 2.4 engine configuration in the 1971 Le Mans race. Ginther was a master at getting a little more out of production Porsches because he had been preparing 911s and 914s for SCCA racing here in the US for a few years before their 1971 Le Mans effort. As a result he had some tricks for the 911 that they hadn’t seen in production based race cars Europe before. Ginther replaced the rubber suspension bushings with Teflon suspension bushings of their own manufacture which offered more precise suspension alignment. They also used stiffer torsion bars which improved the cars handling. Harold Broughton who did the engines for Ginther prepared the engine for their Le Mans effort. Their efforts paid off for they were the fastest qualifier in the Group 4 GT class and the fastest of 20 GT Porsches entered.

While this cars Le Mans debut was not auspicious because the car went out with a broken connecting rod in the eighth hour of the race because of an oil line problem early in the race, it was significant because it was the start of a trend that many American teams were to follow In 1979 we were part of an American team that took four Porsche 935s to Le Mans and while we finished better than the Ginther 911ST placing second, eighth and ninth we were not the first.

The Ginther 911ST was sold to Bill Yates, a California Porsche dealer who competed with the car in Porsche club events and continued through the years to modify the car to keep it competitive. Fortunately as the car was modified over the years Bill Yates kept all of the original parts, so that when Dave Morse purchased the car from Yates in 1993 it made it much easier for the Morspeed crew to restore the car to its original configuration.

Morspeed is a comprehensive restoration shop with many complete restorations under their belt ranging from 911 Carrera RSs, to 906s, 908s, 936s, 934s, 924 GTRs and a 917/30 . They do complete restorations in house including body work paint and all of the mechanical assembly. Jerry Woods Enterprises whose shop is within Morspeed did the engine and transmission for Dave Morse’s 911 ST. In fact the engine was assembled in one of our engine overhaul classes that we hold at Jerry Woods Enterprises.

Dave Morse and Ron Gruener and the rest of the Morspeed crew extensively researched the car and then performed the comprehensive restoration that was completed just in time for the 1997 Monterey Pre-Historics. The car tested well at the Pre-Historics and a week later it became the first 911 to participate in the Monterey Historics. The car was able to run because there is now a large group of the historic Trans-Am cars running at the US historic races and in the early days of the Trans-Am series there were two different classes in the Trans-Am series, the over 2.5 liter cars where the Mustangs, Cameros and the like ran and the under 2.5 liter class where the Porsches, Datsun 510s and Alfas ran. Dave’s 911 ST was the only under 2.5 liter Trans-Am car at the Monterey Historics, but it is a good beginning and it was great to see a 911 at the Historics.

http://www.911handbook.com/articles/e_davem911.html

[nostatic]

Originally posted by CamB
Every time I come across a picture of an ST, I have saved it to my hard drive. I now have about 6mb, but no way of easily posting or hosting them.

If you want you can dump them up to my server for public viewing.

[jluetjen]

It's time for Zombie Thread!!!!

Classic Porsche recently carried an article about a 1969 Marathon De Le Route replica 911. There is very little information about the cars involved, and not even a whole lot of pictures.

On a whim I did a search in Youtube and found a whole documentary on the "race". (I'm using ""'s since it was really an 84 hour endurance event). The documentary is actually about the Argentinian entered Torinos which were there, but the Porsche 911's make a number of cameos. The Torino's make an interesting counterpoint to the 911's with their massive tires and obviously extensive modifications.

Here's a link to the video starting with when the Argentinians arrive at the Nurburgring.


The night-time start looks like Manhattan traffic jam pulling out after a traffic light changes!

Enjoy!

[jluetjen]

I happened to be scanning in a few "keeper" articles from a bunch of old Road & Track magazines that I have before I dispose of them, and I came across this ad in the January 1969 issue with a picture of what I suspect is the Marathon De Le Route Sportomatic 911.

[TRE Cup]

Actually no ! the car in the brochure is the Fred Baker 911 that was raced in Trans Am for a couple years.
The car was a factory built "cheater" as they came with no sound insulation, under coating, "special" race prepped motor, roll bar, and other deleted items. Back in the day, the rules were pretty strict and modifications allowed were few.

The car was raced later in life by Milt Minter and Dick Smothers. It resides today in the Los Angeles area with it's enthusiast owner

[RSBob]

Reading your headline it appears you are building a 911 T Replica, not an ST repilca. The former really had me scratching my head why anyone would purposefully build a T, no matter how good a T might be.

Here are some good pics, inside and out to help answer your questions. 1972 Porsche 911 S/T 'Tribute car' | Autoweek

The members of the Early 911S Registry know these cars inside and out and would be a great resource since they deal almost exclusively with early cars (pre 74). You don’t have to own and S to join, a T would be just fine,