1. Driver, 2. Suspension, 3. Wheels/Tires...

[Jack Olsen]

4. Chassis rigidity
5. Vehicle Weight
6. Horsepower

Pelicanite Tyson Schmidt and I went to track Tyson's 1972 911T cab yesterday, and that's what we concluded was the hierarchy of going faster in a 911 -- or any other make of car.

Tyson's car is the kind of 911 that shouldn't be competitive on any track. It's a 72 T with stock torsion bars and sways. It's a Targa converted into a cab, so it's chassis should be the least rigid of any car. It's light, but not particularly light -- with electric windows, a full-size passenger seat, stereo, sound deadening and carpet. It's even got a heavier-than-most roll bar in it.

So you'd think it would be at the back of the pack when it's put up against several supercharged and race-prepped NSX's, as well as three or four Corvettes, including Z-06's, and an M Coupe, a Gen 3 RX-7, a turbo Audi S4, a Mini Cooper and a Subaru WRX.

And to include some Porsches, there was also a C4S with a Motec 3.6 that put out about 330 hp, and a modified 993 Twin Turbo, and a 993 C2, and a Boxster S.

The Mini Cooper was the only car there that had less horsepower than Tyson's 72.

So, like I said, you'd think that Tyson would be in the slower half of the pack, at least...

But again, the hierarchy was never clearer:

1. Driver
2. Suspension
3. Wheels/Tires
4. Chassis rigidity
5. Vehicle Weight
6. Horsepower

Tyson was the fastest guy there. This is in a car with somewhere between 140 and 150 crank horsepower. He was only a second off of my best time in BB1, which has almost twice the power.

The car running closest to him was the 360+ hp Gruppe M supercharged NSX, which clearly had more dollars in it (by a factor of maybe 10x or more) than Tyson's car.

What does Tyson's car have? Well, first and foremost it's got Tyson, who had visited this very technical track once before, and now feels he's gotten a handle on it. It's also got the 8x10x17 wheels from BB1, which allow him to run 245/275 tires.

And the car also has Tyson's special alignment settings, suspension tweaks and chassis reinforcements. To all the guys (present company included) who are spending cubic dollars on building faster cars, Tyson's is a sobering demonstration of how a little bit of money and a lot of know-how (applied in the right places) will allow you to shoot past cars with 2x and 3x more horsepower.

I drove the car also (at a pace 2 seconds off of Tyson's), and it's really amazing how a well-set-up, light car handles. It's completely tossable -- you overcook a big sweeper and you can goose a little throttle, or ease back, or brush the brakes, and bring the car right back onto the line. Its balance really spoils you. But you can learn more, because bad moves are (usually) fully recoverable, and there's no cheating with the go pedal to make up for a bad line through a corner.

Black Beauty 1, while also a very well set up car, was a lot more work to push around the track. It had a much higher rear weight bias (not as bad as a Turbo's, but worse than an early car), and a much less pliant suspension. Pushed to its limits, it was a faster car than Tyson's. But Tyson's car is much more comfortable to drive (and it cost Tyson quite a bit less than my car cost me).

Compared to all the high-priced, high-gloss cars at the event, Tyson's 31-year-old p-car (with its aging coat of dark gray primer) didn't attract any attention at first. But as the day rolled on, and Tyson and I continued to pound on each of the two run groups, there was a steady stream of 'holy cow, how do you get through the turns so fast?' visitors who I think were trying to figure out where the turbos and the race slicks were hidden.

In any case, it was a great day trip to Spring Mountain, part of Tyson's and my prep for the 2003 Open Track Challenge.

It was also an eye-opening event for me. As much as I've learned about the tricks and toys you can use to build a faster 911, this showed me that the biggest and easiest gains come from three things: 1) seat time, 2) mods that keep your car stuck in the curves more than they do rocketing down the straights, and 3) having someone (like Tyson) who really knows what he's doing set up the suspension and chassis reinforcements for your car.

Here are some pictures of the unassuming beast. Some of you might recognize BB1's rear bumper and sheet metal around the torsion bar openings.











(Really nice guys at this event, also. It's organized by Dali Racing -- an NSX aftermarket shop in San Diego.)

[Eric Mckenna]

I think you guys are nailing it!... I think you're both 110% correct with that assumption.
Being smooth and hitting the correct lines.. with make up for HP's anyday unless you are dragging! hahaha
which Track driving is NOT!..
Great job guy's on being the fastest car!
I can't wait to read the track reports from this years 03 OTC.

Thanks for the Pic's Jack... there is somethign sharp looking about a slightly scruffy looking 911..

Eric Mckenna
78SC

[speeder]

Great report, Jack, and congrats to you and Tyson. Everything you've said is true, but of course it's not what makes the boat payments for the guys w/ the full-page ads in Excellence.

[tsuter]

In the fourth picture down - did he hit somebody?

[Joe Bob]

Nope that was the wicked witch he landed on after the windstorm.....

[DByers]

Great write up Jack. Tyson gives me hope that with some seat time (alot of it), taking my 71 to the track is not out of consideration.

[Tyson Schmidt]

Actually those are my feet sticking out from behind the car. I was paying my ticket over the phone.

Jack, thanks for the kindness. It was a very fun weekend. Everyone there was very friendly!

One guy came over to Jack after his session and congratulated him on his driving, telling him "that car handles like it's on rails!!!!!". To which Jack replied; "No, actually it handles terribly. It's just that I'm such an amazing driver, that I'm capable of getting it through the corners so well, that it looks like it handles great."

Well, O.K., the first part was true. The guy was pretty impressed by Jack's driving and the car's grip.

Oh, by the way. Jack, you could probably switch 2 and 3. I think tires are slightly more important than suspension/alignment. Also, my swaybars aren't stock. Just the torsion bars are. I've got 22mm aftermarket front and 21mm factory rear swaybars. (But it is definitely a 2.4 carbureted T motor, sadly.)

[rcwaldo]

great job! Where is Spring Mtn?

I agree with what was said.

Last year at the Milwaukee Mile CART race, our Atlantic teams found that their 240hp 4cyl's had about a 20mph advantage at both ends of the track vs. the 900hp Champ cars. Of course on the straights, it was another story.

Chris

[MMARSH]

Tyson,

Good job. I agree about switching 2 and 3 also. Having big sticky rubber makes a huge difference averything else being equal.

I've never really understood why everybody gets such a jones to get a bigger motor and still only have okay driving skills.(okay I understand it a little) But Ya have to admit, it is a total blast to rip up on people that have alot more power and money spent on there rides then you do.

[makaio]

Is this a sublimental add for TRE . I'm ready to load up the SC and drive it down to Hollywood to have Tyson set me up!

[Jack Olsen]

Spring Mountain is in Pahrump, Nevada, an hour or so north of Las Vegas. It's a fairly tight two-mile track with 10 turns.

Mike Marshall is faster on it than either Tyson or myself. I think he's tagged a 1:53, there.

Mike was also at Las Vegas Motor Speedway last weekend. Maybe he'll give us a report.

[turbo6bar]

Hmmmm, my lowly 180HP SC doesn't sound so bad now. I better hit every driver's ed event and budget for a set of track tires.

Thanks for sharing, Jack.

Jurgen

[Tyson Schmidt]

Hey! I think Eric Mckenna just named my car.

Scruffy!

Scruffy it is. That is, until Kevin at Automotive Innovations gives it the same treatment as Jack's car. Then She'll be the sexy topless little sister to Black Beauty!

BTW, I just noticed that top picture of my car in the middle of a corner. That's some serious angle she's tilted at. That was a scary decreasing radius turn that's followed by 2 very tight switch-backs that lead onto the front straight. Gave me pucker factor 9 most of the day.

[Superman]

I'm really glad Tyson is focusing on that '72. I never liked the '92. Tyson took our local GTU class by storm in his first autocross year, and our GTU class is pretty hard to take. That and everything else I have heard suggests that he has 'the next level' of natural talent. In music for example, there are those who love it and do it constantly and are very very good to most ears, but those people sometimes run across someone who, regardless of practice time, have such music in them that you know that no amount of practicing can put you where they are. I have a suspicion that Tyson might have a driving talent closer to those foreign names I keep hearing who race F-something-or-other.

And Tyson is an absolute magician with a toolbox. And I also believe that tires may have the edge over suspension. You guys should have seen Randy Wells' Number 51 at yesterday's autocross. He was using full race slicks for the first time. His eyes were like saucers, perma-grin on his face. Most of the time, the car had three tires on the course. He practically twisted the car in two trying to break it loose, and it wouldn't go.

[Tim Walsh]

I thought I was the only one with a good insulting nickname for my car.. Mine's the flying turd as dubbed by dtw

[MMARSH]

Jack

It was a great weekend at Vegas. Probably the most fun I've had since tracking my car. I'm at work right now,so I'll type more later, but seeing as the last time the car and I were in Vegas, It suffered a major major oil leak , this time was much better.

[JonT]

Sounds like you two definitely added to the Porsche mystique--old beat up looking 911 pounds on newer cars costing 2 to 3 times + more with twice the horsepower. Beautiful!

[MotoSook]

Good thread Jack. My 180HP motor will sleep happy tonight

[Jack Olsen]

Agreed. Tires go in second position. But the problem with saying that in the opening to this thread is that some guys will go out and get a set of track tires for their first autocross or track day. Doing that will hurt more than help -- since (I believe) street tires are such an important tool for learning about driving a car.

In the same vein, driving a low-horsepower car like Tyson's was very useful for me. It showed me where my fast-in enthusiasm sometimes trips me up. In my own car, I can always rely on torque and an 80% limited slip to get me out of a corner cleanly when I've come into it making a mess. Not so in Tyson's car, and I actually briefly let a Corvette walk away from me a little bit aftert I made a couple of bad turns like that.

So today, I'm a little bit better for not having those two crutches.

[stuartj]

""So you'd think it would be at the back of the pack when it's put up against several supercharged and race-prepped NSX's, as well as three or four Corvettes, including Z-06's, and an M Coupe, a Gen 3 RX-7, a turbo Audi S4, a Mini Cooper and a Subaru WRX.

And to include some Porsches, there was also a C4S with a Motec 3.6 that put out about 330 hp, and a modified 993 Twin Turbo, and a 993 C2, and a Boxster S.""

Jack
I am mystified.

I agree with your "go faster" hierarchy completey. I suscribe to the "less is more" school absolutely. And I know from posts here that you spend a lot of time on the track, and therefore believe you when you say Tyson can drive.

I know for example there are few tracks that I drive where my relatively well set up 911 where even a lowly WRX cant hand me a thrashing (in fact a bad example as these are the easiest things to drive very fast.) I dont feel bad about this because I am 5 secs faster at my bench mark track in a WRX too.

Given all that, and given the line up of cars you state were present, I can only conclude this - no else there could drive a greasy pole up a dogs arse?


stuart 87 carrera