SWB versus LWB

[cjameson]

I've read in some previous posts that the SWB cars can be "dangerous" at high speeds, is this true? If so, can anything be done to make them "safer"? example: wider tires, stiffer suspension? Thanks

Charles

[jpamental]

Well, lots depends on your definition of 'high speeds' - but I certainly noticed that going to 5.5" wheels with 185's instead of the stock 4.5" wheels with 165's made a HUGE difference on my '68 in stability and tracking at highway speeds (70-75 cruising). I never did anything else to the suspension besides new Koni's - but I put many thousands of miles on that car and was very comfortable.

Jason

[jpamental]

Charles - what wheels/tires do you have on your car now? How about shocks/struts and bushings (new,old, stock etc)?

Jason

[w6zo]

Originally Posted by jpamental

It's really disappointing that neither Don nor Gregg can just give this up and actually discuss Charles' original question. Charles - I hope that you can look past these posts and not let it interfere with enjoying your car.

Please let us know more about your existing setup so we can better understand what you have and what might make a difference.

Regards,

Jason

So you would ignore Fish's bashing and ridicule and answer the post like nothing happend? Guess you're a better man then I.

To answer your question Charles, I think the issue of SWB cars tending to be dangerous at high speeds relates mainly to the "wicked" handling charistics of the SWB 911. The 912 is a much better balanced car, due to less weight in the rear. Porsche tried to compensate for that tendency by putting 2 - 8# weights in the corners of the front bumper, but only on the 911. The final solution was to lengthen the wheelbase 2.2 inches. I cannot speak from experience, I have never driven a SWB - only ridden in them.

But - a 40 year old car CAN be dangerous at high speeds, or any speed for that matter, if the suspension is not up to the task. Probably the main issues in an older car (besides obvious worn tires) are the various bushings and the shocks.

The original bushings were rubber and if they haven't been replaced, then they no doubt are shot. Even if they have been replaced within say the last 10 years, they still could need replacing, especially if the car has been sitting. It is sort of like deciding when your shoes need to be shined - there really is no one right answer. There are 3 or 4 choices in the material the bushings are made of, and probably twice as many opinions as to which is best. Depends on what you want out of the car. Most people pretty much aggrees that the bushings from Elephant Racing are the best. But they are also the most expensive. There is a very informative video on the subject in the technical section http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/polyurethanefriction.htm. Before I put them on, I was told they would make the ride harsh. I can't say for sure, as I also installed large torsion bars so the suspension in much stiffer, but I don't think the ride is harsh. It isn't as bad as I had expected, and I think that is because there is little or no friction in the system.

Beyond that - there really isn't ONE thing that will MAKE your car stable - as it is a suspension SYSTEM and there are many factors beyond bushings - shocks, tires, alignment. Alingnment can play a very big role when everything else is fine.

I run my car with a neutral toe setting for autocross. For that use, when turning into a corner, it makes sense not to start with one wheel pointed out of the turn. But this makes for a very "darty" feel on the road - the car does not want to naturally steer itself in a straight line. There is nothing wrong with ANY of the suspension components (the car could be a poster child for Elephant) - it is just a result of the alignment settings that are more optimal for autocross then highway driving.

[teleski42]

I had a '69 and now a '66. I have 165x15 Vredesteins on 5.5 Fuchs with standard ride height and the handling is great. That old SWB thing was a 911 issue with it's heavier engine anyways. Jim

[Wayne 962]

If people have beefs from other boards, do not bring them here, otherwise the posts will be deleted and members will be not allowed here anymore...

-Wayne

[Jaems]

Since I have driven and own both SWB and LWB Porsches. The SWB 912 is one of the best handeling of the early 901/2 bodies. The height is some of the problems in the SWB 902's. They were raised about a inch to give the 911 an advantage in handeling. If you drop it down to the original 902 euro height or 911's. You will see an improvement in the handeling. Also do not fight the wheel when on a straight road and you feel like the car is weaving side to side. It is usually a cross wind and the 902 will track right on it's own.

Besides putting it back to it's original euro height. You can go to a stiffer shock and stabilizers front and real. I tried the elephant bushings on my 66 and they did not fit well at all. It took too much adjustment and still did not fit tight. I went back to the original factories bushings and got the tight fit that I needed. This is on the rear the front still has the original factory bushings and is tight as the day it left the factory. The last time I had the front wheels align was in 1989 and the tires are wearing even and there is no movement in the stirring wheel at all at any speed.

In closing the 912 is one of the most forgiving Porsches even made. Since I have never driven a 914. I can not give any insight to them. However, I have own and driven several 911's new and early and my favorite is still the 66 SWB 912R.

[itsofishel]

I believe they used up the last 8-10 Four Cam Carrera 2 motors from the discontinued 904 over to the 65 902's. They wanted to run these special Euro cars under the 902 line keeping in style the 4 versus 6 cylinders in the 901's. I can't believe there is one in the U.S. Here is a few shots of two I saw in Stuttgart on my fellowship tour a few years back.

Gregg

[cfc]

I never knew,or saw a 4 cam in a 900 body, especially a factury set up. Do you have any pictures on the motor mount area? Did it use a 911 oil tank, or a 356 oil tank? Are these written up in any of the Potsche type books?

[teleski42]

It would be great if we did stay on topic as more people might participate in the SWB 912 myth vs the LWB cars. The pic with the 4 cam in the 912; it was the late Hillman's car?

[Jeff Trask]

Hillman's car did not have a 4 cam. Porsche never put one in a 912. It would be fun though! I'd actually like a Dean Polopolus motor in a 912. Same balance as a 912 and the power of a 911.

I've had both a SWB and LWB 912. Both cars had simalar motors and suspension set ups were indentical. At the autocross, the SWB car was king. On any twisty road, the SWB car was the best. The LWB car always pushed a bit more and felt less precise. It was a better car for the highway. It was just a bit better at going straight. I prefered the SWB car for the driving I did.

I have sold both of my 912s. They were great cars, but a very rare and nice 1967 911S came my way. I'm looking from the other side of the fence now and I have to say, this 911S is a lot of fun. Too bad the guys that own the 911's aren't as friendly.

[w6zo]

Originally Posted by Jeff Trask

I have sold both of my 912s. They were great cars, but a very rare and nice 1967 911S came my way. I'm looking from the other side of the fence now and I have to say, this 911S is a lot of fun. Too bad the guys that own the 911's aren't as friendly.

You'll have to change your email address and get rid of that personalized plate now

[AshEvan]

Jeff,

You are right, these "911" guys are brutal . . . . . I ask a simple question like what type of benefits have you experienced with a a COOL COLLAR and you can't imagine the abuse I took HA! HA! HA! It was absolutely hysterical, one response was filled with pics of use for a cool collar, everything but what it was intended for. I cried laughing.

Look forward to seeing you on the road!

Mark

[itsofishel]

Jeff, You always have a garage in Portland if or ever needed on your long travels. hell, I'll push my 912 out to the curb for that beauty;-)

There is a 67 911s in my area slate grey with red interior. Those 4 1/2's make it look like it's riding on rails.

Gregg

P.S. I think the 67 911s is a SWB car. Not like the LWB cars;-)

[w6zo]

Originally Posted by Jeff Trask

I have sold both of my 912s. They were great cars, but a very rare and nice 1967 911S came my way. I'm looking from the other side of the fence now and I have to say, this 911S is a lot of fun. Too bad the guys that own the 911's aren't as friendly.

I was asked recently if I wanted a 911. My knee jerk reaction was no.

But - after giving it further thought - a 67S (or R) would be hard to pass up. But I think I would keep one or both my 912s as daily drivers.