911 head conversion -912 bottom end
 

Have been researching engine build options currently have a fast typ 4 underway for my 912. I recently came across a cryptic reference to 911 heads on a 912? Does anyone have knowledge of this conversion??? Or have i misread the reference. Thanks MIchel

911 is a six, 912 is a four......?
Chas.

There are several but all have been custom built, I have been building one myself (for 18 months now) Here are some pictures of a few that exist now. You will notice that the cam tower is cut and welded ,custom cams ect...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1230067235.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1230067257.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1230067277.jpg

Send me a note and I will forward you some links of forums that have threads devoted to this subject

like the craziness of it all pure porsche perverse ...send more technical build details...have these been built to show it can be done or were these built for specific track/race use? Michel

This a very popular conversion in Europe, the engine in these pictures is over 20 years old. I have found when inquiring about the conversion here I was met with a lot of negatives. http://centralvwaudi.com/Russ_Fellows.htm the link that I provided is a start and it chronicals on of the most known engines of this type. I think that it could be a little neater but it serves it's purpose well.

When I get home I will be able to provide more information

Why bother with this conversion. You can buy the parts for a 4 cylinder 911 engine. It would be cheaper in the long run and more reliable. I forgot the name of the folks that do this. However, if you contact the folks at Parts Obsolete. They can turn you on the them. They are very good friend with this manufacture. They even have one of his

engines.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1230576299.jpg

Polopolous 4-cylinder 911 engines.

Cheaper in the long run? I don't know. I am waiting to get one of Deans motors for my 356 and I would not call it cheap or even inexpensive. I have spent a little over 1600US for the parts for my current overcam type4 engine project, all on ebay. Dean sent me this quote:

"The kit price is 12,995.99 dollars.
The kit consists of crankcase, crankshaft, camshafts and oil pump drive; There are two parts groups that need modification to use with a 4 cylinder 911 motor. These are the cam towers( 1978 thru 1988 ) and the oil pump ( magnesium early type , 3 bar) 30% pressure 70% scavenge."

Now, I am not saying this is not worth it but the first motor that I did with alusil jugs and custom machine cams and towers was 2300 complete and it's still runs strong. The way I figure even after I spend the 12k I still have to spend another 5K to get it on the road and this is a VERY conservative number. The turnkey engines are close to 25,000 with no special jugs or cylinders.

polopolus motors
 

I too would like a polopolus motor...and had Dean supply a cost for the kit and it is as Mark suggests...not an inexpensive motor once all the build issues are factored in. Nonetheless an impressive motor.

I was interested in the idea of distributing the motors in Australia, however with the current build programme (small) coupled with exchange rates makes the motor all but impractical...read $35-40,000.00 Australian Dollars....Now if we could convince Dean to upscale production????:) I am sure this motor could be a more viable, read affordable option for more people...Mark I look forward to the additional information. Has anyone actually documented (drawn) the conversion?

This would be a great thing.

Regards Michel

By the time you find all the parts and machine them to fit. You wil have about as much in the 912 conversion as you would in the Dean engine. When I did my 912R engine I put about 16K into it. I bought all OEM or new parts Good quality bearings are hard, if not impossible to find. My case was standard/standard and I have forged pistons, rods, and crank. On the dyno my engine produces 114 lb of torque and 116 hp at the rear wheels. I may be off a little on the dyno test. It's been a while since I did the dyno. However, it is close and my 912R is streetable.

If that were the case I would have bought two of Dean's motors, I have TWO type 4 motors one complete and one I putting together now and I am have spent less than 5K. Than there is ther matter of horsepower 218hp dyno'ed when built. I am going to dyno it sometime this winter when I set it up with EFI (megasquirt). The bottom line is that this is not for everyone, and the one thing that might be pointed out here is these engines are type 4 VW engines not 356/912 engines.

The VW parts are easier to find. There are a lot more type 4 engines out there than the original 912/356. Also a lot more third party manufactures that make speed parts for the type 4. That is why they are called 912 Renegades the 356's are outlaws. The difference between the Outlaw and the Renegade. The Outlaw will run a 356 or 912 engines and have cosmetic/customizing changes to the body and interior. Where the Renegade is mainly the engine change to a different type/manufacture than the original such as the suburu, VW, 911, electric motors, and etc. There can be some cosmetic changes to the Renegade, however, not extreme as the outlaws.

At 218hp it is recommended that you will need front oil coolers to keep the heat down, or rebuild the engines every twenty thousand miles. Unless you are going racing. Then you will tear down after every race.

I personally prefer to run a stock factory R engine than a third party. I feel it is more reliable and this one has been. This engine has been in my car since it was built in June of 66. This car was a special order and shipped to Danmark according to the letter that I received from the factory years ago.

Well I guess it boils down to symantics. Emory motorsports calls allot of it's 356's with Dean's motors and other type4 creations outlaws, I actually thought the renegade name came from adding watercooled engines...Anyway I run my current engine using a drysump configuration and I have a fender mounted oil cooler. What I was trying to say is that I personally would never use a 356/912 engine for these mods as I would prefer to preserve the integrity of the engines. They are becoming harder to find as you stated earlier. This also allows me to make my cars stock again.

Happy New Year to you and I am just glad to see that someone is on this forum once and a while

Some of us check this forum regularly. We just don't usually have anyone to talk to. :(

Emory coined the term Outlaws for the 356. Gary's father was a well known Hot Rod Customizer back in the 50's. Gary started customizing the 356 and they became Outlaws. The early imperial German Eagle is the emblem that he uses and bestowals on those 356's that make the grade to be known as a Outlaws. It is only recently that the Dean engines have been included and being used in some of the Outlaws.

Eaglehttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1230846141.jpg

The Renegade is a termed used for 912 types only. They mainly started as engine conversion such has been all ready stated. The term has been used so as not to confused the 901 type body with the 356. The Renegade badge is the Imperial Austrian Eagle.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1230846179.jpg

So you are calling my car a renegade? OK. I was told by a 356 Racer that the outlaw series had more to do with car not being in it's stock configuration. Nice badges, very nice. Maybe you could share some pics of your 912R? It would be nice to se some of the hi-po 912's in this forum I am going to take some pics of my engines and post soon

Happy New Year

The car looks like a normal 912 with the exception of underneath, interior, the rear badge and of course the engine. It has factory front and rear stabilizers and front oil cooler. All the instruments are in metric and the back seats are removed and replaced with a luggage type self. The stacks were remove from the carburetors for street driving. If you want to race it just removed the interior, add a roll bar, put the stacks back on the carbs, and tune it for the

track.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1230920151.jpg

Jaems thanks for clarifying renegade/outlaw. is it that the 912 forum says renegade and the 356 guys say all modified cars are outlaws? will have to source a badge for my car. Great clean car by the way...do not often see such fine 912's . With your designation of an "R" motor can you explain what the specs of your car are to claim the "R" tag??
Mark as per previous emaiul more info on these conversions would be great.. my little research in OZ thus far suggests that no one has done it here.

There was a whole list I had somewhere. Things like a CD box and pointless distributor, a hotter cam between 280-290 degrees. The heads were cleaner than the stock ones (ported and polished. 10:1 compression and forged lower end (pistons, rods, crank). The bore was not really increased any. A one piece intake manifold matched for the Webers. Also the jetting, stacks, and etc. was matched to the cam. I have detuned it a little for a smoother street drive. I have also changed the exhaust to a stock one for the sound problems. There is little notice of a lost power with this exhaust.

It scares 911's drivers when they look in their rear view mirror and see me right behind them. Being a SWB car I can get through the real tight corners faster than they. The low end torque and lighter car makes a big difference also. On long straights I am pretty close with them up to 80 to 90 mph. After that they start leaving me far behind. HP is only really good at upper end. The torque is king at the lower end. So a lighter car, a lot of low end torque and a short wheel base makes for a fun drive added to the special suspension.

The engine was not the only thing that made it an "R" the rest went with it. This was not a US car. It was strictly for the Euro market. The factory didn't want the "R" cars marketed in the US because of the low 911 sales, at the time. The factory was trying to convert the 356 owners to the 911. The 356 folks would of jumped at this car if it was made available. Very few were made and this particular car was originally shipped to Danmark. Over the years I have only met a couple of folks that had ever hear of the 912R and they were Europeans.

I just drive and enjoy the car. I take it to some hot rod show and they really enjoy have the car around and talking cars with me. Besides it really is a fun car to drive.

You might talk to John Benton over at the 912bbs. He is the 912 Registeries President, at this time. He has a machine business, in which he works on 912's and the like. he has built a couple duel spark pugs head engines and etc. He could probably tell you more about what is involved. I do not know him. However, everyone seems to hold him in high regards.

So you are saying that there was actually something called a 912R from the factory? This is the first that I have ever heard of this. I own Barth's Porsche Book and several other "resource" books and they make no reference to a 912R. Can you steer me in the direction on what exactly is "R" spec on one of these and how many were made, etc etc?

A while back in the 11/05 (#142) issue of Excellence they did a story on John Benton's personal car. It's got almost two pages of the article dedicated to his twin plug engine and many of the things that they did to it. More recently, John Wilhoit has been getting a lot of press for his twin plugged 356/912 engines. It's something I've contemplated for my own engine if I ever get around to the 912. There's a couple of cars and engines in line in front of it before the '66 ever gets a wrench turned on it...

All I have is a letter from the factory that said that it was a special order and shipped to Skandinavisk Motors in copenhagen. They in turned informed me that it was sent to their dealer in Aarhus. The dealership in Aarhus never returned any information to my inquires. I purchased it from a auction in California, in the later 60's.

A couple of folks from Europe told me they remember seeing one of them in a couple of races back in the late 60's or early 70's in Germany. But that is all they could remember. The factory never campaigned any of them because of their interest and energy in promoting the 911, 908, and 917s. From what I gather it was just a very limited production for a few special orders. It just had a little hotter engine and better suspension like the 911S. It also has instrumentation like the "S" and sport seats. The Sport seats in mine were long gone. When I purchased it. I guess someone else thought that they should have them. However, I have replaced them with some leather Italian seats of that type vintage. There was really no information of the engine spec.

I was lucky enough to have a friend that was factory trained and built racing engines for the Porsche teams in the late 60's and 70's. He was able to help figure out what the specs were or at least close to the originals. He also was not aware of this type of Porsche. He was mainly geared toward the 911's and 908's after the 911's came out in 64. He is also a good friend of Emory and Dean. In fact Gary was the one who originally turned me on to him.

That's all I know and also everything I got from the factory and their Kardex. It is just another one of those things that got lost to the ether. It just wasn't that important enough for the factory to keep detailed records. They weren't even interested in it when I asked about it back in the early 80's.

912r
 

Interesting history Jaems...I had thought that the "R" appelation was purely in reference to the 911's...some form of homage. Apparently not. It would be great if anyone could come up with further info on these cars then... there is a dealer currently selling a 912R in the staes..Though I think this is just a 912 tricked up.

I am going to have a local engineer - stan pobjoy twin plug my heads. I have just sourced a pair (one cracked) that will be used as the test mules. If it is successful i will have the head repaired and use it on my motor.

Stan Pobjoy is currently twin plugging typ1 and type 4 VW motors for around $1300 Australian dollars including a distirbutor to suit. Read approx $550 euro and approx $900USD

reasonable i think. He has a website google stan pobjoy.

Jaems:

Interesting to learn. I've been a 912 Geek for 40 years and have never heard of a 912R. Was it a European factory option? Can you provide any other info or references (books, sales literature, tech specs, etc.)?

Thanks,

Frank
'65 912 (451326)

Jaems:

Do you have a Porsche factory-issued Certificate of Authenticity on the car? I don't know if Danish owners can order one, but it would be very interesting to see how the car was originally optioned and described. How about a Kardex?

Frank

It was for the Euro market only. The factory was trying to push the 911 sales, in the US, during this time. The 912 was out selling the 911. The 912 was cheaper and most of the 356 converts were buying the 912. Because of it's 356 type engine and they trusted the reliability of this engine. The 911 engine was a unknown factor at that time. Also the 912 was a better handling car than 911.

I do not have the Kardex. Just the letter from the factory they sent me. When I requested the Kardex information back in the 80's. The letter stated it was a special order and as far as I can recall things like the suspension size front and rear stabilizers, front oil cooler, R type 1600 engine and number, red leatherette interior, five instruments and type, fog lights, a Frankfurt radio, sport seats, five gears transaxle and number, chrome wheels, and silver metallic paint and number. The car sold for about 23,200 DM. I have no idea what it sold for in Denmark probably about 45,000 Kr.

The car no longer has the red leatherette interior, Frankfurt radio, chrome wheels, wood sterling wheel, nor the original sport seats. However, it doesn't make much difference. It will not be on the market. When I go. It will go along with a 65 Mustang to my cousin's two boys. By that time they will be old enough to enjoy them. Or I will just be buried in the 912. Until then I will just enjoy the ride.

Jaems:

I feel exactly the same about my '65. I've probably turned it into the equivalent of your car: 1,720 cc, 22/27-mm torsion bars, 911 front brakes, factory sport seats, 7-inch alloys with 50-series tires, etc. No radio, rubber floor mats; with half a tank of gas, it weighs 2,050 lb, so it surprises a lot of 911s at autocrosses or on the track.

Frank

Jaems if you bury yourself in the car do not let the whereabouts of the graveyard be known...!!!

Frank post a pic of the car. It's great to begin to get a feel for what other 912 nerds are doing or panning to do with the car and not the usual i put a 6 in the back and big RS flares.

I am about to embark on a rebuild of my 67 and am still throwing ideas around re: bodywork mods, interior and drive train. Once I get cracking i will start a thread detailing the rebuild.

cheers Michel

Michel:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232138366.jpg

Chassis number 451326

Frank

Frank and it isn't another bloody red 912! looks clean. What other mods etc?

Michel

Michel:

Not much, really. I bought it for $4K in February 1968 at 27,000 miles, used it as my everyday car for years, and it has about 165,000 on it now. Been restored, of course, and won its Parade concours class twice (big deal, three cars in the class). It'll be at the Parade in Colorado in July.

Frank

Just to get this thread back on track, Here are some preliminary pictures of the heads, cam housings and cylinders of my OHC type 4 enginehttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232724575.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232724597.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232724621.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232724658.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232724691.jpg

mock-up without the front. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1247294178.jpg

Hi Mark any updates?

Hey Mike,
I am machining parts right now, if you look in picture you will notice the face has been cut off the Type 4 engine I am now in the process of machining a new face that will allow me to run my cams from the existing camshaft. I will post more pics as they become available.

mark further updates or have you been posting on another forum?

Hey Mike,

I have not gotten my camshafts back from the machine shop, and I have to figure out what I am going to do about a new face plate and the oil pump setup. Here is current picture in mockup stage.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1268503742.jpg

Hey Mark it's coming along! is that the original case or a type 4? I can't tell but it looks like you cut the face off of a type 4. What happened to the 912 block you started with?