Initial Pics of Turbo setup

[1bad914]

Here are a couple of pictures of my motor with the Turbo exhaust manifold attached, it is still wet from the Por-20 high heat paint. I'll install the cooling system and tin in the next day or so and then comes the install and finger crossing

[Carrera916]

Hey,

Did you do the exhaust pipe fabrication? Different length exhaust pipe on each cylinder end, is that a concern to extract power? What turbo size/brand are you using? I'd like to know more about that as I'm looking into doing mine someday.

Thanks,
jerry

[1bad914]

No I did not do the fabrication, I bought this entire setup from a guy in CA. I don't really care for it, as a matter of fact I have already re-welded a couple of areas because of fit problems. I have done a lot of research on this type of setup (draw through) and the exhaust length is not that critical. If I like performance I will fabricate my own exhaust next winter using mandrel bent tubing and better welds.

This setup is based on a Garrett T-3 turbo with an internal waste gate set at 8 psi. I will run it using that much boost for the initial dial in process, then install a dial-a-boost to play with the boost levels. The PO ran 13 pounds of boost and had no problem. He had manufactured his own spring setup for boost adjust, I'd rather dial it in. The carb is a Weber sidedraft 45 with water injection. I was in the process of designing my own setup, then someone on this forum steered me towards this advertised setup, it was close to what I wanted to do and was reasonably priced, so I bought it. It should be interesting! I'm surprised that no one has commented good or bad. I know it's not that pretty, but it will produce ponies!

Randy

[JmuRiz]

OK, I'll comment...bravo, I love to see people with the balls to try something new for more power on their 914s. Keep us posted on the progress and dyno runs when they happen. Good luck.

Nathan

[Tom Perso]

Randy,

Are you running a cylinder head temp gauge on that setup? Just the plain VDO spark plug kind should work, just to keep an eye on the head temps.

I'm really curious to see how this setup works...

May 19th is getting closer and closer! And remember, no trailer queens allowed in the T4 club!!! LOL

Later,
Tom

[maf 914]

1bad914, your project is really interesting. I hope it works out. good luck and thanks for the photos.

The issue of equal length tubes for exhaust headers and intakes is an interesting one. The early Indy car turbo installations look very crude, both on the exhaust and intake sides. The basic idea was that these engines were making more power than normally aspirated engines so the details didn't really matter. But current turbo engines have beautiful equal length headers and balanced intake systems which indicates that the basic performance rules do apply to turbos as well. It's all relative I guess.

Another good comparison is the Porsche 917/10 Turbo Can Am car and a contemporary turbo sportscar like the Audi A8, which makes the 917 turbo installation look ancient.

Mike

[1bad914]

Tom,
These 2.0 heads have a CHT sensor...I think! See pic. This is a very rudamentary setup, but if I like it I will refine it.

[Kenny Powell]

Why didn't you go with a high volume oil pump?

[1bad914]

I have a Type 1 HD oil pump that I am going to convert, I just have not taken the time to do it. I guess that will happen before the air box goes on I need the extra volume to push the oil thru the turbo cooling sytem and then back to the case. Good eye Kenny!

Randy

[Griznant]

Originally posted by Tom Perso
May 19th is getting closer and closer! And remember, no trailer queens allowed in the T4 club!!! LOL

Later,
Tom

Tom, if you and Randy show up on the 19th, you'll be there by yourselves. The show is on the 18th.

Randy, looks like a lot of show, but still no go! I've got mine all together now, just painting the tin up all pretty, and porting my manifolds to match my big ol' hogged out heads. Should be bolted to the trans this week!

Good luck,

G

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

First--Very kewl! Should be a blast to drive--120-160 HP is nothing to sneeze at in a lightweight 914-4.

Second--See if you can locate "sammyg2". This looks and sounds a heck of a lot like his old turbo setup. He bought a partly-done setup, like you, and finished it. Drove it for a while and then sold the car. His setup used a suck-through sidedraft Weber as well, but I don't think it had water injection. He said it was good for 7-8 PSI boost on the 91-octane junk we can get in CA. He dialed it up higher on occasion and used race gas, I think.

Third--the CHT sensor you have circled is the stock one for the EFI. It will respond too slowly for you to save anything if the temps start to spike. It is out away from the combustion chambers, in a bunch of metal that takes time to warm up, and has cooling air flowing on a lot of it. The general consensus is that this is not a good location for a sender. (It's convenient though!)

A better way to do this is to use a ring thermocouple under a spark plug. It is closer to the chamber, has less metal around it, and is mostly shielded from cooling air by the plug and head. It is also a lot more accurate than the stock thermistor-type sensor--I don't think any gauges are calibrated to that one.

Four--An EGT or mixture gauge would be a Good Thing. You do NOT want a forced-induction setup to run lean. Ever. The Exhaust Gas Temp gauge will tell you about a lean condition by reading very hot, and even one of the cheap narrow-band O2 sensors will tell you when you run lean. (It won't tell you how lean, but since any lean is bad it is a good enough indication.)

BTW, never use a narrow-band O2 sensor as your primary tuning instrument. It is very reliable at telling you "rich" or "lean", but very poor indeed at telling you how far you are into rich, or into lean. (That reading depends a lot more on the temperature of the sensor than it does the actual oxygen content of the gases.) A wide-band O2 sensor is far better at telling you what your mixture really is... But it isn't that necessary in this case, as you mostly want to avoid running lean in any way and aren't too worried about running rich.

Five--Look for posts by "ejm" and "evill". They both currently have and drive turbocharged 914s, though theirs use CIS injection. They will both have good ideas about what can be done reasonably and what can't, and good ways to break parts and good ways to avoid breaking parts. If the Shoptalk forums were open (they closed yesterday, I haven't looked to see if they're back yet) you could look for posts by either of them over there too. There were links to pictures and some good info posted there.

Some pics of their setups can be found here:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/MotorCity/DaveDarling/ECR_01/Friday_AM.html
http://www.pelicanparts.com/MotorCity/DaveDarling/ECR_01/Poker_Run.html

It sounds, to me, like you are in for a lot of work, a lot of frustration, and one heck of a lot of fun!! I'm thinking we'll need to take up a collection for your surgery--to get the huge grin off of your face...

--DD

[1bad914]

Thanks for the advice Dave. If I remember right it was Sammyg that sent me to the ad about the Turbo. The motor is a 2056 to start with so I'm expecting 150+ hp. Even at 8 psi. If I crank the boost it will get scary. The PO thought he was pusing 180-190 with 13 PSI. That was on a tired 2.0. We'll see what it does, this is all one big experiment! Hey Grant, I new it was the 18th, Mr. Perso needs to check his calender. If I can't trailer it there then I don't want to be part of your club!!

I trailered my Ghia to it's first show, and guess what, it was the same one two years ago!

[Tom Perso]

Hey Guys,

Randy, Dave is correct in that the stock head temp sender is very slow to react. The best way to go is to wire up a VDO spark plug temp gauge. At least you'll know how hot your NEW heads are getting. I am going to forcast that if anything is going to blow up on this, it's going to be your heads first. Protect your investment.

Yes, I had my date screwed up, so sue me. Thats my one mistake for the week...

What's cool is, we have 3 very different cars with 3 very different motor configurations, but all going towards the same cause. I love it.

Later,
Tom

[John Rogers]

Is this going in a 914??? If so is there enough clearance at the rear of the engine for the pipes coming up? They seem to take a lot of room? As for temps, a much more sensitive method would be exhaust temps as this will also give you an idea of what the cylinder is firing like at boost and what effects timing is having on things. Dave is right, 200 HP in a four cylinder 914 is pretty neat. Good luck

[norustscott]

As John indicates...there appears to be some body modifiacations to make it work in a 914...Why not leave the turbo out of the engine bay and under the car?

I look forward to the results. neat sound I bet...

[sammyg2]

You can't turbo a 914! I crack myself up everytime I say that.

Yup, very similar to my old set up except the collector on mine was on the other side if the tranny. Mine ran great at 7 psi, good at 9 psi, anything above that was asking for trouble. I did not have an external oil cooler, but I sure could have used one. If you don't have one I would definitely get it before you go anywhere near 13 psi.

A little advice, run it rich on top end at first and then gradually work your way down. If it is already dialed in then you can skip that part, just make sure it doesn't go lean under boost. I ran mine extra rich to control combustion temperatures and keep it running cooler.

Equal length exhaust runners are primarily for scavenging, that does not come into play at all on a turbo motor. BUT... evenly spaced pulses will spin up the turbo a little quicker and reduce lag, not much but maybe a little. That's why more modern systems are made that way. I would be nice to have but IMO not worth the hassle to build it that way.

Oh, and put back as much of the engine tin as possible, sealing up what you can. That will keep the hot stuff down and the cooler stuff up. You don't need gaps or holes. Of course that goes with all type 4s.

[1bad914]

The only thing that the PO left off was the back tin, I will not leave it off, I will cut it to fit. You should see the exhuast on this thing, it looks pretty cool! It will come out the stock location, he said that it was deep and throaty!

[Jake Raby]

All the heat in the engine bay sure will bump up the fan inlet air temp. That coupled with boost will definately create a bit of heat, for sure.......

[JmuRiz]

Add a small intercooler? Maybe one from an A4 1.8T...those aren't that big.

[norustscott]

"All the heat in the engine bay sure will bump up the fan inlet air temp. That coupled with boost will definately create a bit of heat, for sure......." So, why is the heater... ah turbo in the "up" stream side of the cooling system? I predict a hot motor. In both regards...