Debate time; exhaust systems

[sasquatch]

I am making my plans to build a nice 2.2(ish) motor for my 74. In researching exhaust systems, the only options are these:

Keep heat and just use one of the many noise makers at the end. Some may be better than others, but all in all, not as good as full headers.

Give up heat and buy a good set of headers of which there are a few on the market.

Here is the point of debate. With the number of us people building decent motors, why has no one came up with a performance header system that incorporates heat? 911's have them available.

Jay

[M. Hendrix]

Buy a header system, and box it?

I like factory mufflers, and stainless HEs. That being said, I am switching to Triad mufflers, because the last 2 OEM mufflers had loose baffles, and I am tired of paying for them to rattle.


M

[Jake Raby]

For a syesyem that does not incorporate heater boxes.....The Tangerine Racing System is untouchable in Performance- Hands down stomps everything else on my engines(Dyno proved that one)

[M. Hendrix]

Hey Jake, that motor everyone is ranting about, the new one?

Where? I wanna see! I wanna see!

Tanks!


M

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

The real problem is that most of the decent header systems simply don't have room to wrap heat exchanger ducting around them. Not conveniently, at least... They were designed from the outset for racing, not for street cars.

--DD

[M. Hendrix]

Ok fine, electric heat, or early fuel lines... you pick a heater!

Seems like donuts around the down tubes would be fine, I have never used the heaters at 100% warp meltdown anyhow.

heh

M

[iamchappy]

Why wrap around the header, couldn't you simply mount ducting over the top
of the header. the reflective heat and radiant heat should be enough for heating up the interior enough to stay warm. I am considering this on my 6 as I currently have no heat, since I would not drive it in the winter and only need it when the temps are around freezing this fall, it wouldn't take much to do the job.
I have always thought the stock 914 heat exchangers heating system was to hot, I was always trying to adjust the fresh air with the heat in order to keep my face from frying off.
But what do I know about cold I live in Minnesota and have driven a 914 through many winters. I could never understand it when people said the heaters in a 914 barely worked, I never found that to be true.

[sasquatch]

Oh yeah, my 914 will boil myself out of it in the winter. The defrost leaves a little bit to be desired. Just needs more fan I think.

That brings me back to my original post. Why can't someone who has the ability, design a performance header system that still encorportates heat? I would be willing to pay dearly for a system like that.

I have the machine shop, welding abilities and tube bending equipment, but I have no knowledge of header design beyond keeping the tubes equal length. But then so many other factors start complicating things.

So, it looks like I am forced to deal with the heater boxes robbing power from the 2.3 liter I am planning to build and just live with it.

Jay

[iamchappy]

Jay
I am going to pickup some heat ducting supplies at the home depot and see if the radiant heat from my headers is enough to get heat without boxing them. for a handful of dollars investment I think it is worth a try, otherwise i am stuck having to shell out thousands for the patrick 914 6 header system with heat, or put the car in the garage till spring. current temp this morning 32, tomorrows 26.

David

[sasquatch]

Keep me posted and take lots of photos while doing the install.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Originally posted by sasquatch
That brings me back to my original post. Why can't someone who has the ability, design a performance header system that still encorportates heat? I would be willing to pay dearly for a system like that.

How much? $10K? If you can convince 4 or 9 other people to pay that much, you can probably find someone to do the job. If you will "only" be willing to pay $2K, you'll probably need to find 49 other people who are willing to pay.

As we saw with Pelican's flare project, it's really very easy to say "why don't they make X, I'd be willing to pay a lot!" Hundreds of people will do that. But relatively few people are actually willing to put their money up...

If you're really serious about this, drop Racer Chris a line (his website is http://www.tangerineracing.com ) and ask him what it would take to re-work his Super Header system so you could wrap heat exchanger ducting around it. I do suggest you be sitting down when he quotes a price, though, as custom fab work is never cheap. Particularly when done to those kinds of quality standards.

--DD

[sasquatch]

DD
I totaly agree with your statements. I am in the manufacturing business and understand this completely. My question is, how many total exhaust systems are sold for 914s? How many more would buy full header systems if they offered heat?

Maybe I am going in the wrong way here. Maybe the solution is to look at removing the oil cooler from the engine and setting up a system where 100% of the hot oil is circulated through a "heater box" like coolant does for our liquid cooled friends. Use this system to heat the interior. It would need and additional oil cooler coupled with a thermostat that would route the oil to an additional oil cooler if temperatures rose too much or if you were using it in the summer with the heat off.

Of course, if I thought about this process very long, reasons it would not work would probably come up quickly.

Uh, problems, my mind is starting to smoke....

Oil over water system like in the 944's, and even my sport bike. My Yamaha has a spin on adapter that goes between the oil filter and the block. Coolant is ran through that to A) Speed up the oil coming to temperature and B) keep it at a more constant temp when hot.

Create/adapt one of these units to handle more flow. Have a small water pump (Large fish tank, pond, etc.) circulate the hot coolant from this to a standard heater core that routs hot air into the cab...... It would be a small self contained system. You could even rig a small belt driven water pump off of a VW Passat to do this work instead of an electrical pump....................... Argggg my brain is smoking........

[Jake Raby]

Tangerine Racing is making a system that will incorporate a small heater box.......email Chris for more info.
I WANT ONE>

[sammyg2]

On a stock engine does an aftermarket exhaust system really make much difference besides noise? I realize on a highly modified engine the stock system would be restrictive, but my impression is that the stock system works pretty darned good, so it's hard to justify big $$$ to change it unless the engine is built. On a full race engine the heater is not usually a big deal. That's just my feeling and not backed by any data, am I way off base here?

[Alfred1]

Originally posted by sasquatch
DD
I totaly agree with your statements. I am in the manufacturing business and understand this completely. My question is, how many total exhaust systems are sold for 914s? How many more would buy full header systems if they offered heat?

I would buy one if the price was reasonable.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Originally posted by sammyg2
On a stock engine does an aftermarket exhaust system really make much difference besides noise?

Apparently, anywhere from ~5 HP to ~10 HP, depending on a whole raft of things. On a modified engine, potentially much more....

The stock setup isn't exactly equal-length, and the only place the exhaust streams meet is inside the muffler. I don't think there is any real kind of "collector" built into the muffler either.

...Unless we're talking the 75-76 setup, which really chokes a stock 2.0 down from 95 HP to 88 HP. Unequal-length stuff again, with very very short primaries, then making an immediate tight 180-degree bend--not exactly good for power.

--DD

[roadtrp204]

...Unless we're talking the 75-76 setup, which really chokes a stock 2.0 down from 95 HP to 88 HP. Unequal-length stuff again, with very very short primaries, then making an immediate tight 180-degree bend--not exactly good for power.

Dave I understand the late system is a bad design but the 180° argument doesn't seem to hold up looking at the www.tangerineracing.com header.

[Jake Raby]

Exhaust is the biggest single upgrade that can be done to an engine.

I have NEVER been able to make a 30HP change on my dyno on one engine with anything except exhaust.

Build the engine around the exhaust you want to run.........Some guys spend 5-7K on an engine and make as much power as a guy with 1/2 the engine and a good header.....FACT

[echocanyons]

Jake, have you dyno'd the T4 european racing header?
Do you have graphs for Chris's header and the Euro Racing header?
How bout the one that Paragon sells? I'm not sure who makes it.
Seems to me that the mandrel bent tubes would outperform the welded ones

The biggest downfall is price on Chris's header. But I'm sure they are top notch.

[SteveStromberg]

There are less than 25000 914 left. Steve