Thinking about MSD Ignition

Dave Bell · 04-26-2000, 05:14 PM

I am thinking about installing an MSD type ignition in hopes of cleaning up the last bit of roughness of idle during warmup and pick up some "improved" performance. I like the idea of higher voltage sparks that will encourage a good spark even in difficult fouling and warmup conditions and the multiple spark that could help at low to mid rpms when mixture in the cylinder could be variable and "swirling"..... seems to me like it could help.

Based on my short look, it appears that no one sells an MSD type ignition complete with optical or magnetic pickup replacement of the points. Unless someone knows of one?

The MSD(tm) unit and the Crane Fireball unit seem reasonable and I have seen the Pelican tech article on the MSD unit.

Any experience out there on these units. What is a good price for each.... and place to buy.... the Pelican Price on the MSD is pretty steep...(sorry guys)...

- Dave
- Dave

surfcity914 · 04-26-2000, 05:34 PM

i installed the crane hi6 unit. it is a similar concept as the msd 6a. the hi 6 uses multiple sparks at low rpm, and switches to a hotter single spark at high rpm. it also has a built-in adjustable rev limiter, where as in the msd unit, you have to buy separate rev limit modules. i also have the crane optical trigger, and a crane ps91 coil. you can try summit racing. http://store.summitracing.com/main.asp

paulhagedorn · 04-26-2000, 05:37 PM

You might want to consider the MSD-6A or 6AL. I wouldn't say you get a 10% increase in hosepower, not really any at all. I have the 6A and I think it is a good investment. Idle is a lot smoother and there is a noticable improvement in top end horsepower. It isn't all that hard to hook up either. I got mine for around $130. The difference between the 6A and AL is that the AL has a built in rev limiter which you plug in a chip to tell it when to cut out. I have the 6A because I have a centrifugal cut out in my distributor. So far, it has worked great...all of it.

Paul

mejulihn · mejulihn's Garage

I have been very happy with my Crane Fireball unit. It uses an optical disk in lieu of points and has produced a smoother idle. Bought it in the Bay area (Fremont) for about $96.

MJHanna · 04-26-2000, 07:04 PM

MSD makes a distributor also (they call it a VW),with a little sheet metal work (the tin needs a smack with a rubber hammer). Anyway it plugs right into the MSD. Go for the 6 AL, the electronic rev control is nice.

John Rogers · 04-27-2000, 06:26 AM

I have the MSD-6b on our race car and it works great. Much better starts than the stock system and the plugs burn much cleaner. I have them gapped at .045 which is a lot. I use the Compufire replacement for points which works well and the company is great to work with. I would try Summit Racing on the web and their prices are unbeatable, even better than Pelican's. I would opt for a shift light instead of a rev limiter, since most over rev accidents seem to happen when you down-shift and then it does not matter if the engine is firing or not. You never know, you might just need that extra 100 RPM sometime for a Top Time run at an auto-x!

[This message has been edited by john rogers (edited 04-27-2000).]

Germain · 04-27-2000, 06:32 AM

F.Y.I. typically there MSD units increase horse power on a Briggs and Straton moter that 20 years old. They then use that data to sell it to you. If memory is serving me correctly, Porsche did a study with them on their 911 Turbo and found a loss in power. I would only worry about installing one if I was having problems with my ignition. Its nice to have a pointless system, but the multiple spark is not going to get you more power.

Ok, done rambleing, next...

Dave Bell · 04-27-2000, 10:02 AM

Crane Hi-6 or MSD-6... hmmmmm... they both look good.

What about the tach adapter... do you need it with these ignitions and our VDO gauges?

John Rogers · 04-27-2000, 10:11 AM

With the MSD system and the stock tach you will need the adapter.

surfcity914 · 04-27-2000, 10:43 AM

you will need a tach adapter for the crane unit as well

HarveyH · 04-28-2000, 04:44 AM

An additional note, when I was researching the jetting on my carbs, two Weber distributors recommended going to a multiple discharge CD type ignition before trying to fine tune jetting. If you have carbs, and particularly if you have had HP work done, do the ignition conversion, both the point replacement and the CD multi-spark units. Major improvement in the starting and running of my car.
Harvey

tmk · tmk's Garage

Anyone that that tells you that you need a MSD or CD unit before you jet and sync carbs is trying to sale you something you do not need. I have a 2.1L 8.5-1 C/R with 40mm Webers. It was setup by Jerry Woods Inc. They do not recommend MSD type ignition systems. It has a stock ignition system with the blue coil, 050 dizzy and a prentronx unit. It starts up and idles very well when cold, has no flat spots and is very strong all the way up to red line. If all is setup and working as it should be the stock ignition system is a very good one.

TMK
73 914S 2.1L

turbo2.0 · 11:25 AM

I too have a 050 with a pertronix unit, and it starts instantly and never misses even when it is was running way too rich and when it was getting oil fouled due to the total seal rings not being seated correctly. It even fires well under boost at all rpms. So far I have been very happy with it. It is also cheap. I paid about $55 for the pertronix unit at the local VW parts house. One word of caution, do not hook up the wires backwards. It will instantly fry the unit. Luckily for me the vw shop replaced it free under warranty.

Germain · 04-28-2000, 08:21 AM

I dont think anyone is questioning the advantages of a pointless system (heck time savings alone justify it). I am just trying to caution everyone on spending the cash for a MSD system. Multiple spark isn't going to help that much, or any at all. It is the electrical equalivant to that air tornado thing they have for the 911's.

turbo2.0 · 11:25 AM

I agree with germain, but would like to add something: When the splitfire spark plugs came out and boasted all kinds of miracles, It reminded me what some of the old time racers I knew told me, "an ignition system will not give you more power, it will only take it away".
If the system is working correctly, no matter if it is a stock points system or something off of the space shuttle, it will allow the motor to make all the power it can. The "working correctly" is the tricky part. If there is a weakness anywhere in the system, a hotter spark (or multiple hot sparks) will help to make up for the weakness. The reason I changed to a pointless system was so that I would not have to fool with points and condensers ever again. The fact that my engine ran better after the change only reinforced the idea that my stock system was inadequate for some reason. Putting new points and condenser did not result in the same improvement, I tried that before I switched to the Pertronix. It was either an additional problem with my ignition (weak coil, bas plug wires, whatever) or an inherant design weakness. Either way, the fix was fast, easy, and not very much money. I later changed my coil with a high output pertronix version, and that seemed to help the motor also. Maybe that was my problem all along. Who knows?

Neal Colingham · 04-28-2000, 01:10 PM

I just did this. I installed a Crane XR3000
appx $110:00 from Summit Racing a Crane PS61
coil appx $50:00 from Summit racing and a set
of 8MM MSD plug wires apx $50.00 from Summit
racing. I know I payed to much for the wires
but whats a few bucks. The Crane gets rid of
the points and uses an optical trigger. It's
a bolt on and plug in installation. My car is
a 76 2.0 with webers and 160,000 miles on the
original engine.The difference was remarkable
I did not have to use a tach adapter my VDO
still works fine. The shop I take the car to
says they install a new ignition in every 914
that has to pass emissions. I know the MSD is good but I wanted an integrated system and it
proved to be just that.

neilca · 04-28-2000, 04:28 PM

Turbo 2.0 is absolutely correct! The use of electronic ignitions coupled with a good electrical box will not win races BUT it will not loose them either. I happen to like the MSD box and have cured running problems on radical motors. I normally prefer a crank triggering system but with the gear driven cam in the type IV I will probably trigger in the distributor.
neil

Dave Bell · 04-28-2000, 07:23 PM

Wow... this topic really stirred up some comments...

The summary seems to be that you shouldn't need these things...don't expect any power improvements... but that in practice they often help.... especially on old engines with problems...

I am with you... I don't expect any HP gains really... Germain's first comment about the 20 year old Briggs and Straton almost sold me instead of turning me off... you see I am driving a 25 year old VW motor with some problems I have not completely sorted out yet! ;-) Sam is right... the big if, is "if the system is working correctly"... I can answer no to that one since I bought the machine a year ago. I'd love to have it all sorted out... but I don't yet.

I have the stock L-Jet FI and the only big problem I still have, after going though everything in the FI system, is rough idle during the first few minutes of warm up and the occasional stumble at idle after that. Most of you guys seem to have added the electronic ignition to carbed engines. I was/am hoping to pick up some improvement on my FI system....

Thanks for all the response!

- Dave