914 coil over baby!

[BigD9146gt]

Hey fellow Pelicans,

I just made some coilovers for my stock 914 front strut and bilstein Heavy duty rears, complete with tendersprings... It looks too cool! I'm going to test them out on my buddies car to see what spring rates work the best. We picked up severl different rates of H&R 2.5" springs...



Anyone out there have any experiance with what spring rates would work best in a 914 with a 3.2 6?

[ovilla]

Just want to say this looks *****in! Also, just curious, are you in any way reinforcing the front since you will no longer be depending on the torsion bars? I just wonder if, for example, the 964's were designed differently in the front shock towers than the earlier 89' 911. I'm just curious on whether there would be any movement/stress of the towers on the 914. Also, what calipers are you using there? Thanks

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

The 964-platform cars are different. Ditto the 935s with the coil-spring suspension.

I have heard that the 914 (or 911) tubs will crack after no more than a year or two with high spring rates and no reinforcements.

--DD

[914timo]

Looks GOOD !!!!

How did you mounted those Boxter calipers in rear ?? Did you remove original mountings or did you manage to make an adapter ?? I know it is tight fit.

[BigD9146gt]

ovilla, thanks, its been a fun project so far. The 914 has the wall that goes between both strut towers that holds the gas tank in place, so i figured that it would be ok. But, Dave does bring up a good point that i have been thinking about, the 914's wornt originaly designed with a coil over type of strut, but this system would be good for a helper spring if one did not want to take out the stock torsion bars, and still want more stiffness over stock.

914timo, i made some CNC adapters. I can't post pics just yet, but i can say that they only weigh .5lbs, and the whole setup weighs almost the same as a stock caliper w/pads. I really want to go with Boxster S calipers though, being that my cars gaurds red. but time and money will be the final factor.

[mike mueller]

looks good, did you add thrust washers and bearings to the top of the spring mounts?? If not, you are going to get binding when you turn the front wheels


you might want to talk to Jason @ Paragon about the spring rates...using the tender springs changes things quite a bit from what I understand

[BigD9146gt]

Tender springs, really? it looks like they just compress and do nothing, but i'll look into it. Thanks.

The perch i have now i just a sold peice, but the top perch will have thrust bearings for that exact reason.

[norustscott]

Why are the coil overs better than torsion bars? I assume that there is some advantage...adjustable spring rates. progressive spring rates...Do you loose some tire clearencing with the coils?

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

You do lose some tire clearance with coil-overs.

You can set up progressive spring rates easier with coil-overs than with torsion bars.

You can get higher spring rates in coil springs than you can in torsion bars which fit in the 914's A-arms.

...And it looks Sooper Kewl...

That's about it for advantages. Not really worth it IMHO unless you really need the super-duper-high spring rates.

--DD

[BigD9146gt]

Plus....
Its a heck of a lot easier to corner ballance
Its cheaper to get different rate springs. A set of springs will run you anywhere from $80 to $150 set, depending on the manufacture. Much easier to replace than torsion bars too.

Daves right, its all about what you think its worth. But, there has to be a reason why all the new race cars are coil overs, and why the winners have them too.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Easier to corner balance? Easier than tweaking one bolt on each torsion bar's eccentric?? I don't think I buy that...

Easier/faster to swap, cheaper--those I do buy.

But saying "all real race cars have them" is a meaningless statement. All real race cars have carbon-fiber monocoque chassis, inboard suspensions operated by pushrods, and so forth. Not exactly practical for any 914 that I know of... (OK, maybe not all of them do--but then you get into arguing what a "real" race car is, and ignoring the point that a dedicated racer is not a 30-year-old street car, nor a racer built on a 30-year-old street car... Which is my point.)

--DD

[BigD9146gt]

Dave, i commend your responce... but the shear fact that the 914 and 911 are STILL winning races in club events, is really hard to get out of my mind. Just this year i remember reading an artical about an event racing 7 tracks in 7 days, it wasn't a viper, vett, or ferrari that won it, but a pumped up 914.

I never said that a "real race car" has coil overs, its to my understanding that torsion bars work better than coil over for other types of racing like dirt track. Road racing, which is what Porsche is MOSTLY about (excluding the Pikes Peak 911Turbo, Paris-Dakar 959, Elfords 911 rally days, Cayenne, etc) has evolved to coil overs(go figure all of the new models are coil-over type...). Torsion bars have a very big purpose, and have worked well in these cars for over 30 years.

This forum is not filled with people who will dedicate their car to the track, but your last statement shows a bit of ignorance. When was the last time you were at a vintage or Porsche club event? There are TONS of people who have made full race cars out of 30+ yr old cars... AND KICK MAJOR A$$. And why do people restore their car with better brakes and newer suspensions? To get a better ride? Better performance? Well, here is an alternative to replacing your torsion bars... Thats all, thats it. Hell, i'm still in testing. Just tell me why Porsche does not use torsion bars anymore.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Originally posted by BigD9146gt
... Just tell me why Porsche does not use torsion bars anymore.

From what I can tell, Porsche switched over because the coil springs (especially when coiled around the strut) make for smaller packaging than torsion bars. They switched on the rear end of the 914, where the motor would have gotten in the way of a torsion bar housing. They switched the 911 over for the 964, because of the AWD parts in front and either the suspension or the engine in the rear.

You lose some room for the tires with coil springs, but you gain back more room for other things on the floorpan of the car.


I really don't mean to get in a pissing contest, BigD. However, saying "New race cars use X, so 914s should use X" is simply not a valid statement. Because a 914 is not a new race car, it is a 30-year-old street car. Or a race car that has been adapted from a 30-year-old street car. They are built using different sets of compromises, using different parts. Making a direct comparison is just about impossible to do.

A 914 race car (sufficiently advanced) is closer to a new race car than a 914 street car is, but that does not automagically mean some particular part is now appropriate to it. It may or may not be, and I do applaud those who test and try, but just because a part is a "race part" does not necessarily qualify it for use on a given 914.

(Oh, as for "vintage or Porsche club event"--does the recent Monterey Historic Races, or the recent Porsche Parade, count?)

--DD

[BigD9146gt]

I feel the inside wheel well will be a larger determining factor to how wide the wheel can be.

Your 100% right, just because its a race part does not mean it needs to be on the 914. For the same reason, because it is a race part, it does not not need to be on your car. I get the feeling that you are a purist, the way the car left the factory is how it should be. I feel the same way about certain things myself, by i am open to the idea that new age parts on a 30yr old car can help make the car handle better. There is absolutly no logical reason not to put coil overs on any 914 short of, "I do not want them on MY car".

[Brant]

whew...

I probably should shut my mouth...
but I'll just add my opinion which people can take or leave as they wish...

I think most new cars have coil overs largely to increase trunk space and cut costs...

I think Race cars have coil overs Primarily to facilitate Quicker spring changes at the track... they often test 5 different spring set ups before a race...

I Think that all of the older porsches you see with coil overs do it because its the cool thing to do... I have not seen evidence that it makes a car faster... I have only seen evidence that it makes a spring change faster....

I say they look cool and do it if you want to...
I always have thought that a coil over theoretically raises some of the weight in the chassis and also raises the percentage of sprung weight when compared to a torsion bar...

either way its not worth getting to worked up about.
You've put a lot of effort into your coil overs and they look pretty neat!

brant

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

You've put a lot of effort into your coil overs and they look pretty neat!

Amen to that!!

And you're right, BigD. I don't see a compelling reason not to put coil springs on the front of a 914. But I don't see a compelling reason to put them on, either!

They sure are neat, and I really admire the work you've done so far with them. But IMHO they're not worth the effort for 99%+ of 914s.

--DD

[norustscott]

Am I correct in stating that the first production Porsche to use coil overs was the 914??? hmmmmmmm. 550 ? 904?

[BigD9146gt]

I assume your refurring to the rear, and IMHO, Porsche would probably have used torsion bars if they could have, as in the front. The 924/944 used torsion bars in the rear, but coils in the front. So i don't realy buy the idea that it was to "save money" or "make a cleaner package". They did it for a reason, and IMHO, the springs of the day were bulky. Todays springs are small, and the quality is outstanding.

If you want coil overs because you saw them on Pimp My Ride, go for it. If you want coil overs because the winning Porsches at Le Mans use them, go for it. If you want coil overs because there are hundreds of veriable spring rates to choose from, go for it. If you want coil overs because you want more spring rate in the front, but do not wish to remove the torsion bars (they can be a helper spring too), go for it.

BUt without ever DOING this to your car, do not start telling everyone how much effort it might be. The effort to put these on is about a '2' on the Pelican Parts tech artical section. 22mm wrench, and a pair of channel locks, and a 19mm wrench to remove the wheel, thats it.

[Acox914]

so how do you reinforce the top of the wheel well so it wont crack from the pressure of the coils....?

your take?

[BigD9146gt]

I imagine that welding the seams would be enough, but i'm still in testing, so i won't put a product on the market without fully testing it. This setup is going to be tested without the torsion bar and a comperable spring, and with the torsion bar and a soft, helper spring.

If during my investigatoin more reinforcement is needed, i will develop it as needed. If i sell kits and people come back to me with new problems, i will fix it free of charge at my facility, or send out parts to fix the problem free of charge. I feel once my products are worthy to sell, then i stand behind them 100%. Thats why my 9146 aluminum oil tanks have a lifetime warrenty against any defects. Period.

Thanks for the replys, Don.