Low Budget Horses

[Type 4 Unleashed]

Horsepower, for those of us on a budget.

Type 4 cranks come in 2 sizes 66mm & 71mm, anything larger, have to be welded up and ground or forged, both at a considerable cost.

For the low budgeter, start with a 66mm crank, they are cheap and abundant. have the 66mm (about 2.160 dia) crank offset ground to 75mm, journal size would then be 1.805 (vw rabbit dia.)
These cranks need to be standard on the rods, so there is enough room to offset to 75mm. Depending on the shop, it will cost $130.00 to $150.00.

Rods, now that you have a rabbit size journal, guess what kind of rod you have to use? If you guessed a rabbit rod you were correct. Rabbit rods are 150 grams lighter than a 2 ltr rod , that's
600 g a set, or 1.339 pounds, which in it self is horsepower, because that is 1.3 pounds off the recipercating weight. Length,
66mm rods are around 5.0", 71mm are about 5.165" Rabbit rods are about 5.350", which is a better rod to stroke ratio.
Rod prep: resizing and bushing, the bushing will depend on the
piston pin size you end up using. Resizeing, will have to be done after you have the bolts turned around, I used 3/8 big block chevy ARP rod bolts, cost effective. Rods will cost, about, $160.00.

I, will go into the piston and cylinder option, at a later time


HERE ARE SOME ENGINE SIZES: CHEVY DIA TO MM

96 X 75=2171 4.005 - 101.7

103 X 75=2500 4.030 - 102.4

104.8 X 75=2588 4.060 - 103.1

105.5 X 75=2598 4.125 - 104.8

105.7 X 75=2632 4.155 - 105.5

4.161 - 105.7

[Type 4 Unleashed]

The part # I have are for the Professional Series Wave Lock set is
#235-6402. And one thing I forgot to mention was, when you turn the bolts around, your machinest will notch the top of the rod
so the nuts have room to fit, and you will need the 12 point nuts
so there is enough room, for your socket to fit the nuts. This kit has the 12 poiunt nuts.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Conventional wisdom is that cast-iron cylinders larger than 96mm tend to have cooling problems and are not that dimensionally stable, leading to compression leaks down the road. Most people feel that when you go larger than 96mm, you need to find biral cylinders (e.g., try to locate old Oettinger 100mm ones) or go with the Nickasil ones for big big bucks.

I have no real data about this myself, however.

--DD

[Type 4 Unleashed]

There, was one more, VERY, VERY, VERY, important fact I didn't mention earlier, a very big benefit of useing the rabbit rods.

I'll, tell you about it another time.


Now, pistons & cylinders, right now I am running a set of BME Nascar pistons made for Joe Gibbs Racing Team. These pistons were brand new, were never finished, (i.e. valve reliefs, pin fit, and small end side clearance) does any one know about piston guided rods? Well, let me tell you, on a small block chevy, the rod big end has a side clearance of at least .010, on the crank, I think it's around that on a type 4, not the case on a Nascar small block chevy, they run up to, .200 thousands, side clearance, are you thinking why would they do that, well I'll tell you, 15 HP, the rods never touch each other and they never touch the side of the crank its all buffered by oil, the rod side clearance is made on the small end, .005 between the rod and the pin bosses.

The, BME's are a bore of 4.1615 thats 105.8 mm pistons, they cost me $120.00 plus shipping, thats for 8 pistons, about $50.00
plus shipping for the pins which were 1 race used Casidium coated pins, that look brand new, they use the Casidium pins because, they don't run small end bushings, they use EDM oiling,
which oils the pin throught the center of the rod usually Carrillo, they did away with the bushings, because they were worried
about louseing the bushings, 7.000 to 10.000 RPM for 4 or 5 HRS strait. Sorry for going on and on, you people don't want to hear about this crap.

I'll, get back to the subject at hand.

Pistons 8 BME =$120.00

Pins Casidium 8 =$50.00

Pin Fit 8 =$32.00

Wire Clips 16 =$15.00

Small End Bosses Clearance 8=$30.00 ?

Cylinders 4 =$220.00

Total Seal Rings = $170.00

This set of Pistons & Cylinders ready to install cost me about $430.00 and 4 more pistons and hard ware ready for cylinders.

I've, managed to bring the price down on future sets.

I, had had a couple of problems, but were due to technical diffaculties

That, fact about the rabbit rods, well I will tell you, because of the
pin dia. being small, the out side dia. of the rabbit rod is also small, it's smaller than a 2 ltr rod it's smaller than a chevy rod which is smaller than a 2 ltr rod. What I am saying is, with the rabbit rod, you could probally go up to a 80 maybe even 82mm
crank, and not have to clearance the case or run a 1" base circle cam. I'am told you don't have to clearance a case up to 78mm
crank.If, I get one I'll find out for sure.

Hope, this will help the low budget people.

[cnavarro]

I have no concerns about the pistons themselves, but their size and their fitment in cast iron 105+ mm cylinders. They (referring to the cast iron big bore cylinders) have proven themselves to be little more than 5-10k miles TBO (time before overhaul). Money would be much better spent on boring out a set of stock cylinders to 96 and matching a set of flat top keith blacks. Bump up the compression ratio and put in a good cam and you're golden. The 96 x 75 configuration will outlast the 103 or 105 x 75 configuration (or a 103 or 105 x 71) tenfold. Just my humble opinion. I know not everyone can spend the big bucks for Nickies, but there's no reason to build a time bomb if you're on a budget, since that's not good for the wallet either.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

[Type 4 Unleashed]

Charles, I believe I met you or a couple of your guys from LN, last year, there was a little 914 gathering on a Sunday in Long Beach, at a little donut shop, and the guys brought some samples of your stuff, the cylinders, they looked great, I'd love to have a set of them, but you seem to have missed the point, which part of the Low Budget Horses didn't you under stand? Lets see $200.00 for a set of cast Iron cylinders or $2000.00 for a set of Nickies, well I will have to go with the $200.00 set and take the other $1800 and put it toward my V-8 Kit.

Look, Charles, nothing lasts forever (except taxes) if I wanted a 914 motor to last, I'd leave it mostly stock and drive it a couple of years, thats not me, or alot of other 914ers, I read a posting, by sean_v8_914, he just thru together a 103 x 71 (2366) and some one told him it would last 15 to 20 k miles, if he kept his foot out of it , and only 5 k if he didn't, sean response was his foot was staying in it till it poped, now thats my kind of 914er.

There are people out there that can aford the best parts, the rest of us, wheel and deal, haggel, have good friends, be in the right place at the righ time, and use what ever we can for as cheap as we can, I call it Creative Engineering, (hay I should use this as handle)

Hey Charles, if you want sell me a set of those Nickies for $200.00, I wouldn't say no.

[cnavarro]

Richard, I don't think I missed the point, but rather I am of the opinion that one should avoid building a ticking time bomb whatsoever, and save the money for a later conversion, be it big 4, six, or v-8. As long as you're willing to sacrifice longevity for low $ and hp, that's all fine with me, and there's always a place for that option :-) On a side note, you planning on attending the ex-dunkel's, now long beach show in Feb? It would be nice if we could get together a small gathering from the forums to just shoot the breeze!

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

[Type 4 Unleashed]

Charles, my time bomb(daily driver) has been ticking for 8 months (16 to 18k miles), I'am very happy with it, it was fun with the extra horses, it was dependable, I'am allready building my next one to swap out, cause it's useing oil. My time bomb, is a 2632 (105.7 X75) I was running 12.2 compression ratio it had 190 static, the cam was 533lift 318 dur, the next motor, I,am going up on the lift, havn't decided about the dur yet.
And if I am around in Feb I,d go. Any place to get up dates on the show?

[Jake Raby]

Damn dude...
Go buy a lottery ticket, you are one lucky guy!

BTW, with that arrangement anything you do with cast iron will use oil.. Total seal rings will make it worse.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Originally posted by Jake Raby
Total seal rings will make it worse.

That's if they seal. Seems to be about 50-50 odds on that. Some folks I know have started calling them "Never Seal" rings.

--DD

[Jake Raby]

They don't seal on a TIV...

[BigD9146gt]

Just on a side note, for all the extra HP you guys are making, add a front oil cooler too! My buddy i work with just went through several oil cooler configuations in the rear of his 914 TIV racer (racing in the POC), and once they installed one in the front, temps went way down. This, in our opinion, is the only way to re-assure a longer life with more HP.

[Jake Raby]

But, cooling the oil doesn't cool the heads. They are two separate entities and head temps are way more detrimental to engine life than oil temps. Hot oil just loses its life span and rarely kills an engine unless you miss a shift with poor pressure..

The front mounted cooler hurts oil volume and if its not done rightcan cause starvation issues that will stack a #2 rod bearing so fast it'll make your head spin..

I mounted my entire oil system in the rear trunk and used ducted air through an aluminum shroud to get the air through the Setrab cooler. Since the lines are shorter everything is simpler and more compact with the oil system..

[mike mueller]

V6914,

do you have real horsepower and torque numbers for these combos??

interesting about the "rabbit" rods.....

BTW, with that arrangement anything you do with cast iron will use oil

....Jake, why is that? Is due to side loading of the pistons in the cylinders??

[Jake Raby]

Because the cylinder expand so much at temperature...

I used the rabbit rods in my first performance TIV engines before we could get cheap TI rods that were stronger..

I still have 4 combos that use them but they became just as expensive after all the labor as using brand new H beams...

[Type 4 Unleashed]

Heads are 2 ltr, drilled and filed, for better cooling flow.

Popular Hot Rodding, issue Nov. 2003, article Titled, The Power Squeeze, it's about ceramic coating your combustion chambers, valve faces and exhaust ports, and alot of other helpful information.
The ceramic coating helps keep the intake charge cool. Example: your plug fires ignites your air fuel mixture heats up your chamber, piston goes down, power stroke, piston comes back up exhaust stroke, exhaust opens, hot exhaust exits, heating the exhaust port, which is right next to the intake port, heating it up and the intake charge, intake valve, fairly large, is heated by the combustion in the chamber, intake stroke, intake vale opens, valved is cooled by the intake charge, intake charge is heated up by the hot intake valve. Cooler the intake charge the better, allows more compression. Just like turbos, the bigger better intercooler, allows for more boost.

It, cost me $35.00 a cylinder to have them coated plus shipping, the companys name, POLYDYN COATINGS, there in Texas, website, www.polydyn .com. Check them out. They were in the article. One of the engineers at JE turned me on to a place here, it's called Specialized Coatings, there in HB or CM I have ther # .

[rsvp914]

Total Seal rings are junk..

[Jake Raby]

I'm more than familiar with coatings..

as you can see here.. http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/coatings.htm
And here http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/coatings_2.htm

Coatings help with some things, but they won't solve design and material flaws. I have seen huge results with certain coatings, and some detrimental effects of others. I am doing a ton of R&D on coatings as we speak and when I geta good grasp on what each one does look for a huge article on my site.

The bottom link there illustrates what DLC coated parts look like. DLC is "diamond like carbon coating" and to do the parts you see pictured there cost 1100.00, as you cen see getting data does not come cheap.

I Have seen benefits of ceramic coated valves and chambers but they won't keep your heads from leaking and won't effect engine temperatures enough to overcome the evil of the big huge "Cast iron clunkers" that are better as boat anchors than cylinders.

[Brant]

[QUOTE]
The front mounted cooler hurts oil volume and if its not done rightcan cause starvation issues that will stack a #2 rod bearing so fast it'll make your head spin..

Jake can you elaborate on this starvation issue...
specifically what "wrong" type of thing would cause this issue.

brant

[Will98D]

A lot of you want to crap all over what V6914 has to say either because you drive your car a lot and need the longevity of a $6k rebuild, or you are interested in some academic-like discussion of ideal solutions. What about a constructive answer like "Total Seal rings are no good, but use X and this could work better". Fact is, a lot of the people that own these cars don't drive more than a few thousand miles a year, and a significant bump in hp for a couple grand looks pretty attractive. I, too, would like to see some dyno results, but if I could go this route with the crank and rods, bore my 93mm cylinders to 96, and end up with a 50+% bump in hp (the 1.8 is only 76 to start, less with wear) then that wouldn't be such a bad thing. At 2 - 3,000 miles a year if the thing lasts 15 - 20k then I'll likely tire of the car long before the engine gives up the ghost.