Any electrical gurus out there?

[green71]

I have a ’71 1.7l that seems to be all stock. For the most part, it’s in great shape, but there’s an interesting electrical issue that’s got me scratching my head. The symptoms, in no particular order:

- When I turn the headlights on, the high beams seem to be stuck in the on position.
- Can’t switch to low beams.
- When I try to switch to low beams, the high beams stay on and the fog lights come on. When I release the dimmer switch, the fog lights turn off and the high beams stay on.
- The fog light switch doesn’t turn the fog lights on or off.

Is this goofy, or just SOP for an aging 914? I checked the contacts at the switch, and they seem to engage and disengage normally.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Mark

[pbanders]

Hmm. Try replacing your combo relay. Pull down your fuse box, it's the big silver relay on the corner. Your symptoms are odd, but it may be that the relay is frozen in the high-beam position.

Do you hear a loud "click" when you pull on the stalk? If not, the relay isn't working.

Brad Anders

[This message has been edited by pbanders (edited 05-31-2001).]

[Paulh]

Well,

I'm no guru, but...

On my long sitting now running '76 (thanks to all for the help), corrosion and bad terminals on the switches were the culprits. It definately sounds like you have a short somewhere causing the wierd behavior on the fog lights. And I've found that corrosion can cause enough resistance to keep the relays from working properly.

Meter everything. Look for even minor voltage drops, and resistance when there shouldn't be any.

Good luck, If I didn't know better I'd swear the electrics came from england!

--Paul

[This message has been edited by Paulh (edited 05-31-2001).]

[John Rogers]

I'd guess the dimmer switch in the column is failing since you can switch but it will not stay. You can test this by unplugging the connectors at the base of the column and jumpering the connectors and if the low beams work and after changing the jumpers the high beams work, that's it. You can see the plugs in the small opening under the column. Good luck.

[green71]

Paul - You're right about the British electrics. If this was happening on my old '61 Sprite (RIP) I'd be happy something was working! Two 35A fuses for the entire electrical system . . .

Brad, is the relay in question Pelican Parts part #C-615-109-01 (standard relay)? There is also #111-941-583 (headlamp relay). As you suspected, I'm not hearing the click when I pull back on the stalk.

Thanks,

Mark

[green71]

John - Great idea. I'll give that a shot before I drop the $$ on a new relay.

Thanks,

Mark

[pbanders]

If you don't hear the click, it's the combo relay. I think your stalk is OK, because your lights react when it's pulled. The stalk dimmer contact is not a toggle switch, it's a momentary switch that provides ground to the combo relay, which does the toggling.

The reason you're getting the odd behavior with the fog lights is because the ground for the fog lamp relay is provided by the high beam filament circuit. This prevents the fogs from being turned on when the high beams are on. With a frozen combo relay, you wouldn't be able to operate the fogs.

The combo relay is the "headlight relay" that Pelican sells.

Brad Anders

[This message has been edited by pbanders (edited 05-31-2001).]

[green71]

Well, I did some explatory surgery . . . looks like the PO got creative with the wiring. The theme from "The Mickey Mouse Club" is now stuck in my head.

The wh/bl wire that connects the headlamp relay to the fog lamp relay has been cut and now leads nowhere.

I found another relay attached to the outside of the fuse box that I can't identify by the wiring diagram. The identifying features/configuration is like this:

W598A-S-12Volt
901.615.104.00
04/70
56A - wh/bl (goes to the fresh air fan, if my Haynes manual is correct. However, I think it's the fog lamp relay (second from right).)
56B - R (Goes to the headlamp relay)
30/56 - Y/R
57 - R (Goes to the headlamp relay)
31 - R

Second relay from the left (Auxiliary light relay, according to Haynes) looks like it's got a couple of wires jammed in where they don't belong.

Anyway, it may be time to throw in the towel and let somebody smart take care of this. Still, if anyone's got any ideas, I'd love to here them!

Thanks,

Mark

[pbanders]

Mark,

Given what you've said about the state of your fuse box, trying to diagnose it without actually looking at it is probably a bad idea.

You sound like you understand what to do. I'd suggest that instead of you giving it to a mechanic who probably knows less about it than you (and charges $65 per hour), do it yourself. Get the wiring diagram for your car either from this site or from the Haynes manual, and rewire it to spec.

Brad Anders

[green71]

Brad,

You're probably right. A little patience, a continuity tester and a positive ID on the mystery relay would probably make this job feasible. Sounds like a good winter project, though. Summer weather & a targa top make a great excuse to procrastinate!

Thanks all for your help,

Mark

------------------
1971 1.7l 914
Willow Green

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Sure you have fog lights or additional high beam lights ?

Also check the wires on the light switch.

31 R ? You say Red wire ?

31 is normaly ground and brown.

56a is highbeam ( white )
56b is low beam ( Yelow )
57 is parking lights controll light ( white/green )

white / blue is normaly for the high beam controll light in the tach.
blue / white is high beam lamp passenger side

Well all recalled from memory but some years and US might have other colors.

Grüsse

[green71]

Your memory seems to be pretty good! The numbers/wires you mention correspond with the headlamp relay. Unfortunately, I have two relays with somewhat overlapping numbers, one of which can't be identified by the wiring diagram (or me).

Thanks for the help, though. I'll print your response & save it for when I'm ready to tackle this job!

Mark

[pbanders]

I found another relay attached to the outside of the fuse box that I can't identify by the wiring diagram. The identifying features/configuration is like this:

W598A-S-12Volt
901.615.104.00
04/70
56A - wh/bl (goes to the fresh air fan, if my Haynes manual is correct. However, I think it's the fog lamp relay (second from right).)
56B - R (Goes to the headlamp relay)
30/56 - Y/R
57 - R (Goes to the headlamp relay)
31 - R
[/B]

Mark, Roland did pretty good from memory. 31 is always ground and brown on your 914. The only connection in the car that is labeled 57 is the parking light indicator, and it goes between the headlight switch and the instruments.

Sounds like your PO was busy. I'd rewire the thing to spec. What shape is the mystery relay? Square or round? I didn't find it when I tried to look it up.

Brad Anders

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Well after restoring and repairing "some" cars you can remeber most of it when you stand at the car. But US light wireing is a bit different to european.

As the 914 is a Porsche it follows the Porsche wire codes. VW has some slight differences.

Also the 914 has sometimes groundproblems and loose cable connectors. But not as wired as the 924.

Here is what we need to trace that thing down:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/parts/electrical/914_electric_71A.jpg http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/parts/electrical/914_electric_71b.jpg

Is your relay round or square ? Can you find it on the diagrams ? Could it be 27 ?

53 is for the foglights

Grüsse

[green71]

Sorry about the delay, guys.

#27 should be the headlamp relay; I'm confident I've already identified that on the relay board.

The mystery relay is actually rectangular:

L= 1.875"
W= 1"
H= 1.25"

It's got a couple of ears for mounting the thing on its side; it's mounted to the bottom of the relay board (fuse side) by one of these ears.

Roland - you asked if I was sure I had fog lights or additional high beam lights. I assume they're fog lights. They look like the traditional factory fog lights. Were auxiliary high beams an option (driving lights)? The Haynes manual does mention a round fuse box relay for "auxiliary headlights." (1989 edition, p 128, Figure 9.22)

At this point I've resigned myself to complete rewiring, but the more I learn now, the better off I'll be.

Thanks,

Mark

------------------
1971 1.7l 914
Willow Green

[pbanders]

Originally posted by green71:
Sorry about the delay, guys.

#27 should be the headlamp relay; I'm confident I've already identified that on the relay board.

The mystery relay is actually rectangular:

L= 1.875"
W= 1"
H= 1.25"

It's got a couple of ears for mounting the thing on its side; it's mounted to the bottom of the relay board (fuse side) by one of these ears.

Roland - you asked if I was sure I had fog lights or additional high beam lights. I assume they're fog lights. They look like the traditional factory fog lights. Were auxiliary high beams an option (driving lights)? The Haynes manual does mention a round fuse box relay for "auxiliary headlights." (1989 edition, p 128, Figure 9.22)

At this point I've resigned myself to complete rewiring, but the more I learn now, the better off I'll be.

Thanks,

Mark

OK, Mark - the relay you describe is a headlight hi/lo beam relay - the square one. The relay you're calling the "headlight relay", the one you've identified - is it round? If so, it's not the headlight relay, and is either a auxiliary light relay or the fresh air blower relay. The round relays have terminals 30, 85, 86, 87, and 87a (87a is not wired on any of the relay plate relays). The relay on the far left is the door buzzer relay - only two wires to it. Mine is round, but there may be square/rectangular ones.

Can you talk a picture of the whole mess and post it? That would help a lot.

Brad Anders

[green71]

Brad -

You were prophetic when you said "mess."

Here's a pic of the fuse box, indicating the location of they mystery relay:



Here's a close-up (upside-down for readability) of the mystery relay:



The mystery relay does look something like the headlight relay on p128 of Haynes. However, the markings (numbers) don't jibe with the wiring diagram. #4 in the pic below jibes with the wiring diagram and matches the replacement headlight relay I purchased:



I haven't confidently identified the rest of the relays, but #3 appears to have a couple extra wires jammed in just to the left of the wire fitting.

I wonder if two headlamp relays were mickey-moused to one board for lack of a fog lamp relay?

Mark

------------------
1971 1.7l 914
Willow Green

[pbanders]

Mark, your mystery relay is a headlight relay, just not one from a 914. Not sure where, I couldn't find the number in the references I have.

In cases where the PO has done wiring surgery, you, the new O are left to clean it up. Rewiring to spec is what I'd do, I think you're already on that road.

BTW, I have totally rewired my headlight circuit, but if I should ever sell my car, I've already got a diagram that shows what I did. I've been slow in getting the info on it up on my web site, but eventually I'll get it there.

Until then, here's a URL that describes the lighting funtctions I enabled:

http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/new_lighting_functions.htm

I've had it set up this way for a while now and it works just fine. It's really nice to have the ability to flash my lights in the daytime, and to also use my aux lights as DRL's when traffic is heavy.

Brad Anders

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

I´m in germany.

German cars had mostly aditional driving lights and the fog lights where extra.

I do own a 72 Texas witch came with no additional lights.

Germans aond some other coutrys in europa can use the driving lights to flash in trafic.

The mystery relay is a 911/912 pre 69 MY unit manufactured in april 1970 by Wherle.

If I´m back online i will load the 1971 shematic and the early 911 shematic.

The relay #4 is the correct unit for that year and has a ordernummer starting mostly with 111 xxx xxx.

These where standard on all VW of that period and are easy to get.

Right now it loks like these relays where parallel maybe the original had weak coil and the secound one is just added on as fast cure.

Well need some time to figure out whats up.

Can you tell me from where each cable on that relay comes. I need the little numbers.

I miss the 57 and the 31 in your description.

Like said previous the 31 is ground and if hot wired things can go strange. Maybe that wire is internally meltet away due the short. But the relay has ground via the screws on the housing.

It looks like it is clamped under the other relay housing but also can run on the yellow cable terminal.

Also check if the wires onthe bulb holder are correct switched and mostly check if the groundwire to the bulb is functional as the missing ground will run backwards trough the other lights depending on how the relay is switched.

I see your car is Lindgreen. Restored a 71/6 conversion some years ago. Superep color for 914.


Grüsse

[pbanders]

One interesting fact about the 111 series headlight relay is that it is only rated for 100W, yet the high-beam load exceeds 100W. I guess VW/Porsche was counting on a bit of conservative engineering.

Brad Anders