1.7 to 2.2

[drumvudu]

What is involved in building a 1.7L into a 2.2L. I would really like Jake Raby to give me some input here if possible. I have an align bored case and am getting ready to start the mods I just want to know what I am getting into and what needs to be done..Thanks..peter

[Joe Bob]

Either bigger pistons and cylinders or a longer stroke crank and pistons....your 1.7 has a shorter stroke than the 2.0....

They also make custom "stroker" cranks...one observation, shorter strokes rev faster but have less top end, depends on what you want to do....

[John Rogers]

A couple of things to keep in mind: first and formost do not do it "cheap" as a big four can eat up lots of $$$$(I really know!). Second if you are making an autocrosser/time trial car I'd go with the stroker crank as they make more torque and that's what gets you out of the corner. My four has enough torque to keep the six's behind till over 100 mph or so and then we have to brake for the next turn. Good luck

[Rouser]

Your best bet would be to go to his site: Raby's Aircooled Technology. It's quite extensive, and should have the information you'll need to build the engine to your specifications.

The man also only uses (and recommends) specific, quality parts and modifications, and is fanatical-to-borderline-insane about his workmanship. Kinda hard to go wrong with that type of dedication.



------------------
Rouser!

[drumvudu]

John, the car is not really getting set up for AX or time trials. I just want to build a strong street motor and from of the info that I can gather, 2.2L's is the best solution for power vs reliability and longetivity. I understand and already knew the things that have been mentioned here already. What I really need to know is how to achieve 2.2L's. What size P&C set do I need to buy and is stroking the motor mandatory to achieve this diplacement. I am certainly considering stroking the motor, I'm just not sure if it is cost effective for what I want. Thanks for the input..peter

[jabez]

I'm sure Jake will chime in but I know from past posts, the cylinders are 94mm factory cylinders bored to 96mm. He then uses a longer stroke crank. I don't believe this size has to have case machining since it has the 96mm cylinders, and the stroke is not so long that you have to clearance the case (I think). Obviously you'll need rods, crank cylinders pistons and rings.

I also believe a motor this big will need carbs, the FI won't cut it here.

[piperpilotduane]

You'll need 96MM P&C, a 2.0L crank and rods. I used a midrange scat cam. I also used 1.8L heads. (1.7 WON'T FIT THE CYLINDERS.) I have dual 44 webbers and it runs great on the street. Also call jake and get his new video while supplies last!!!!
Good Luck

------------------
Duane
'76 912E, '73 914,
& '76 VW BUS (ALL 2.0L)

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

The biggest pistons and cylinders (that are not one-offs) that I have heard of for a Type IV motor are 105mm. 105mm bore x 66mm stroke (stock 1.7 stroke) gives you 2285cc displacement. 103s are also available, and will give you 2199cc displacement.

That said, the 103s are evidently that that reliable, and the 105s are less so. Numbers I've heard are in the 30K - 50K mile range before you get to throw them out. And that's with patient, careful assembly!

Unless you go for Shad Laws' new (not yet out) 102mm P&Cs (four-digit price range!!!) the largest P&C set that appear to be reliable are the 96es. Jake says that the 96mm cylinders you get over the counter are still not that great, so he makes his own out of 94mm cylinders. I've heaard the 96es are fine from others, but they usually don't have as much experience as Jake.

Jake's "all around great motor" is the 2270cc. That's 96mm P&Cs with a 78mm stroke. It seems to make very good power (depending on how the rest of the setup is), and have good longevity--nearly stock longevity, if you can believe what I've heard.

BTW, I'd be leery of any case that was beat up enough to require align-boring. Type IVs almost never do, and there may be more serious problems if yours did.

--DD

------------------
Pelican Parts 914 Tech Support

A few pics of my car: http://www.pelicanparts.com/gallery/Dave_Darling

[drumvudu]

Dave, the case that I have I bought from a guy that started a project that he never finished. He told me that he had the case align bored because he thought that it was the "right thing to do" when building a big four. I had the case thoroughly checked by
a machine shop in Ft. Worth that specializes in drag racing bugs. A guy I know that drags bugs vouched for them and from the guys that I talked to when I went to the Bug-In down there, they have a great reputation. They told me that the case was very straight and that it didn't appear to have ever gotten hot. It also came with all Raceware hardware. I wish that Jakes shop wasn't on the other side of the world from me but unfortunatly, he is. I think that I will leave the short block assembly to a reputable shop in Denver and do the rest myself. It sounds like what I need to do is have Jake build me a set of P&C's and then do the build here in town. Thanks so much for the info..peter

[DDS]

96mm cylinders and the 2.0's stock 71mm stroke give 2056cc. this is the combo I'm using. I have a spare 2.0 crank and rods in GC BTW, plus a brand new FAT 440hp cam that I'll sell.
Do you have heads? 1.7 heads won't work without flycutting and probably bigger valves - why bother. If 1.8 as suggested,
do make sure that the stock valves on the 1.8 heads will flow adequately to justify the expense of doing everything else. Bigger valves might be in order.
Also, CW stroker cranks cost the same pretty well regardless of stroke. Rimco has a good price. If you go to Jakes magic dimensions 96X78 for 2270cc you will get the best combo of available parts, minimal clearancing, and max. displacement useable with stock cooling.
If you've got the bucks and no heads yet, jake's engine kit may be the way to go.
There's lots on this subject here is you search the archives.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/Forum2/HTML/003891.html
takes you to my big newbie blahblah on the subject.
Good Luck.
Dave

[This message has been edited by DDS (edited 10-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by DDS (edited 10-19-2001).]

[SteveStromberg]

What is the Case letters? If it is an early W you may need to get a different case as you will need the windage tray for a Hi-Po motor.Heres some 2.0 stuff www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/Forum11/HTML/001637.html

Steve

[This message has been edited by SteveStromberg (edited 10-19-2001).]

[Jim Smolka]

For the expense of converting a 1.7 to a 2.2, one might consider buy a 911 2.2 motor. The conversion might not be that expensive. There are deals on 2.0 to 2.4 motors, the trick is to find a nice one.

After the motor, you will need an oil tank and lines, headers, muffler, flywheel etc.

Just my $0.03 worth.

[drumvudu]

Jim, I have been that route (6cyl) before and as much as I would love to have a six, in my experience, it would cost me much more than what I am looking to do here if I did it right. I have most of the parts that I need to build the big four and NONE of the parts I need to build another 6 car. I know that there is a philosophy out there that I believe was origonally perpetuated by Hussey that you can't "hot rod" a four enough to out run a six and that is simply not a fact. I have seen this done quite a few times firsthand. A built six, on the other hand, is a different story. I, at this point in my life, cannot afford to build a six car but can afford a decent and strong running 2.2L four. If I remember correctly, when we finished the six conversion 3 years ago, I believe we were into the project for $8600 bucks not including the price of the car. You can build a pretty strong four banger for half of that. Thanks for the input..peter

[drumvudu]

Originally posted by SteveStromberg:
What is the Case letters? If it is an early W you may need to get a different case as you will need the windage tray for a Hi-Po motor.Heres some 2.0 stuff www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/Forum11/HTML/001637.html

Steve

Steve, Thanks for the input, that was one of the first things I looked at when I bought the case..

[This message has been edited by SteveStromberg (edited 10-19-2001).]

[Jake Raby]

Actuallyn a 2.2 comes from 2165cc which is accomplished by a 78 x 94 combination.

This engine is tougher to build with the stock length 2.0 rods, our 2270 is much easier.

Combinations with the type IV are tough, we finally have alot of them tested, and the 2270 is perfected....

Our shop being way over here makes no difference, my shipper can get your engine to me, and the new one back to you for less than local sales tax would cost if you had someone else do the job in your immediate area, so it all evens out!!

[drumvudu]

Jake, so if I want to go that way, would I need to send you my case or can you send me the kit that you build and tell me what machine work that I need done to my case? The only reason I ask this is because I have a substantial credit with the machine shop that I referred to earlier and could basically have all of the work done to the case with no out of pocket expense to me. What would come with the kit you are talking about and how much is it? Does that basically give me a short block? Does it require me to modify a stock set of 2.0 heads or do I just run them stock? I had planned on having some performance work done to the 2.0 heads that I have. I'm not suer exactly what just yet but I'm sure that if I buy the kit from you that you can give me some tips as to what size valves I should run and any CC mods that would be helpful. Thanks for the input..peter

[drumvudu]

Jake, one other question:
Since there is no way for you to tell me how much horsepower that my motor would produce not knowing all of the variables, can you tell me about how much HP the 2270 that you build puts out and how it feels in the car as compared to a stock 2.0 with FI? Is it safe to assume that the weber 40's I have can be used with a 2270?

[jmb10001]

Jake whats your email, I'm in need of machine work.
Thanks

[Jake Raby]

The 2270 is actually the best bet...Our kit for it is so simple a 4 year old could do it...A 15 year old did with no help 6 months ago!!

The 2270 is a strong, 150HP powerplant with torque like a v-8 and Rpm to 6K (beyond if pushed)

see our website www.aircooledtechnology.com for the kit info,

If you send me your case I can do the necessary mods to it, and mock up assemble the engine to ensure that everything clears correctly.

[JP Noonan]

Jake, can a 1.8L counter-weighted crank I have be used to make the 2270 crank? Or would I be better selling it and using a regular crank from you?

I hate to waste this crank but I have no reason to ever use a 1.8L crank again.