Alternator/Electrical Problem Chevy 350

[mhatter]

Hey everyone,

I've been dogged by an electrical problem for several days. I've got a 1976 914 with a Chevy 350 engine (conversion was done before I bought the car, but has Renegade Hybrid parts).

I have a relatively new alternator that I pulled out and just had checked. It seems to be working "great" according to the battery technician at a local parts store.

Because of the engine conversion, there are obviously things that have been changed, and I'm not the most electrically inclined in the first place.

The problem I'm having is that the battery is not charging AT ALL, and when the car is running, it is running 100% off of battery power. Obviously this isn't good for headlights, fuel pump, etc. If I drive for more than about 30-40 minutes with the lights on, my battery will be dead.

Everything WAS working up until about a week and a half ago. I have an amperage gauge inside that stays at "neutral" constantly.

I have two questions... 1) Is it possible that the 914 voltage regulator was left intact with the 350 engine conversion and that it is now going bad? If so, where in the hell is it located in the car? 2) In a typical car, what is the correct wiring order for an alternator from the battery? I'm guessing it should be something like this... Batter + goes to the "Bat" post on the back of the alternator, the side "push in" terminal(s) go to the interior to one side of the amperage gauge, the other side of the amperage gauge goes to the interior power/accessories which then goes back through ground to the - battery terminal. This is NOT how it is/has been hooked up.

Can anyone offer some suggestions or shed some light on some reading resources about alternators, 914 electrical, etc? I have read all of the tech bulletins on here, but none of them seem to really apply.

Thanks to anyone for taking the time to read/respond!

-Steve
Portland, OR

[jabb]

Anything is possible in regards to the Regulator being still installed. The regulator is on the Relay board in the Engine compartment. It is a Square looking box about 2 inches tall about 1 1/2 wide 3 inches long.

You said you tested the Altenator out of the car and it tested good. But how does it test when running in the car I assume it is not charging ?

You need to trace the wiring and connections in order to trouble shoot this. No easy answers.... Also check the Ground strap at the back of the Transmission. Make sure that is connected.

There are also some tech articles on this Board for Altenator trouble shooting as well as doing a search on previous posts
to help you with your problem.

Good Luck

[SteveStromberg]

what Alt do you Have? A three wire or One wire? Steve

[mhatter]

SteveStromberg,

I've been asked this question before, and I'm not quite sure how to answer it. The alternator I have has a single "Batt" post on the back, and two terminal connectors on the side labelled "1" and "2". The "2" terminal post has a short jumper wire that connects it to the "Batt" post on the back. From reading around on the web, terminal "2" requires a 12v connection which the "Batt" post (from being connected to the battery as well) shoudl supply. The "1" terminal connector I'm not quite sure what to do with. From what I've read, it should be providing a voltage sensing line, but I'm not quite sure what it should be connected to.

I have checked the ground strap from the transmission, and it is good and solid. A local electrical shop said that Porsches need to be grounded from the battery to the chassis directly, and my batter is grounded to the engine block. Shouldn't the transmission strap be good enough of a ground to the chassis to provide this?

Thanks for all your help,
Steve

[Will98D]

Can you get any info off the tag or casting numbers on the alternator? My guess from what you have described is a standard Delco-Remy alternator with an intergral voltage regulator. If so, the one wire coming to the alternator is BATTERY, and the internal regulator will maintain that at 13.2 - 14.9V when the engine is running, PROVIDED that there is a good ground. Your tester at the store probably hooked up a "+" and "-" lead, and got a good ground. You may not have a good ground between the alternator and the block. Start there and if that doesn't help, please report back with whatever info you can get off the alternator.

[mhatter]

will98D,

I managed to get the alternator "working" today. The grounds are all good, I'm _pretty_ sure about that. The only thing I can find on the alternator says, "Titan 7127-3". The way I ended up hooking it up is as follows:

1) Alternator "Bat" terminal -> Amperage gauge B+ terminal
2) Amperage gauge L+ terminal to + on the battery
3) Alternator "2" terminal with patch wire to the "Bat" terminal on the alternator
4) Alternator "1" terminal into internal accessories that are switched on/off with the ignition key.

This seems to be working, but the incredibly high + amperage that the gauge reads while driving has me a little concerned. It's reading about +30 to +40 amps. That doesn't seem right.

Some other questions about electrical if there's anyone out there so inclined to help me again!

1) My turn signal relay clicks incessantly at random times. Is this a sign that it's failing or that it's somehow shorting somewhere.

2) Does anyone have an ACCURATE list of what the individual fuse positions should be from left to right on a 1976 914? I'm talking about from left to right as the fuse block is installed in the car with left being closest to the front trunk release handle.

3) With my car completely off, when I push the turn signal to the right, my tach and speedometer gauge lights come on. This can't be normal!

I think I'm just looking at all the aging wires in my car knowing that I need to probably get around to replacing them all, but I don't even know where to begin. I really want to replace the dash in the car with a custom molded one that has a little more style to it, and that probably will be a good time to redo most of the wiring.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions and help!

-Steve

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

This sounds like a alternator with built in regulator.
Doesnīt sound like the original regulator is hooked up into that system.

Maybe contact 1 is for the alternator control light ?
It usually also works as field errector.

Grüsse

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Roland, it's my understanding that the American-style alternators don't need a light in the circuit to get them going. That is supposedly unique to German charging systems. (Dunno for myself...)

Fuse diagrams:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/technical_specs/914_electrical_fuses.htm

--DD

[efeinsmith]

The terminal that is not jumpered to the battery should connect to the feed for the alternator light in the dash. How this works is that you have +12 on the non-alternator side of the light, so before the alternator is working, the alternator contact will be close to ground and the light will be lit on the dash. BUT, this is also the 12v feed to energize the alternator to get it started. When then engine is spinning the alternator and the light is supplying voltage to the contact (bulb still lit), the alternator will energize and begin producing voltage itself. At this point, that contact will also be at +12v, so the lamp will no longer be lit.

The wiring diagrams for the 914 on the Pelican website will tell you where on the relay board this lead comes in from the front of the car.

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Iīm not sure.

Mainly even german alternators will work without preerectet field, They will selferrect under higher revs but this will cost efficiency leading to a alternator charching only after speed goes up but not at idle.

Secound Iīm sure even american cars have a alternator light witch monitors the motion from the alternator to show a failed belt. But i think they mostly show ign witch is worthless in that case as it will light up from the battery even if the alternator ainīt charge or even decharge.

The german used alternator control light also shows other problems ( shot diodes, high load ).

Every alternator "needs" to preerrect the field as the device has no memory effect in the stander (?). Now if you run that meory from the battery you always will have a slight battery drain even if you are not using the car. So you must run it from ignition.
You can swap even german alternators to that. Donīt forget the resistor as this is the controllight ( on Porsches there are resistors and a control light ).

So my sugestion is dump that Remy Delco junk and get a modern Bosch or Nippon Denso alternator from a local junk yard ( maybe they trade in ) Audi, VW, Mercedes, BMW,.......

Grüsse

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Roland, you are correct that everybody puts charging system warning lights in their cars. Most of them can, if skillfully interpreted, show diode problems, ground problems, and so on. However, it was explained to me that most American-designed alternators use something internal to the alternator to get the field pre-erected. And that having the warning light as a part of that field erector system is something done almost exclusively by Bosch.

My info could be wrong--it's happened before.

Anyway, if mhatter can figure out what kind of car/truck that alternator was originally used in, he may be able to use the wiring diagrams from that vehicle to help wire up the alternator. Not sure what else can be done, except finding someone who knows what the wires coming out of the alternator really are.

--DD

[Will98D]

Roland... what's with the flame of the Delco alternator? Just because someone doesn't know how to hook it up doesn't make it 'junk'. It's rugged, straightforward and when the time comes it can be exchanged at almost any U.S. auto parts store for ~$40 with a lifetime guarantee. Plus, the 914 is hardly an example of 'superior German engineering' when it comes to the electrical system. Most of the wiring looks like it was done in a home garage, with a bundle of loose, individual spade terminals for connecting to things like switches and taillight assemblies. My Bosch alternator shorted out last year and turned the wire leading back to the starter into a 700mm toaster element... and came damn close to burning through a high pressure injection line. I like my 914, but it's probably a good idea to only boast when you have something to boast about.

[efeinsmith]

I have an article at home, from Car Craft, that went into great deal on how to install the "1 wire" Delco alternators. I'll post the exact issue (it was in Technical Q&A section) when I get home.

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

@Dave

Like said you can simple use the ignition circuit and forget about the "idot" light. Will save some wires and confusion for the car user. In my eyes it is abenefit giving the user a chance to react.
If a normal driver will lose the alternatorbelt and this belt also drives other accesories like the waterpump ( Or the fan blade )
to cool the engine a idiot light runing from the ignition is very usefull. Its just a difference in philosphie from engenieering and drivers.

After some 20 years working on caes i still have to learn a lot and sometimes even things never thougt about turn into something new.


@ Will98D


Sorry for the flame didnīt meant that way. I have just a other view. It was more a bit frustration on my side as I had also my expieriences with Delco and remeber the wastet time

About Delco: ask any Opel mechanic what does he prefer in his personal car: Bosch or AC Delco.

I worked 3 years with a american mechanic and we worked on many old american cars as well ( mostly muscle cars or muscle engines in exotics ). Guess what he mostly prefered on his own cars. We where hunting german junkjards to get the Opel parts to swap to Bosch alternators. Maybe this biased me but he never did anything with defektive Delco parts then trashing them or trade them into a rebuild unit. On his personal cars he allways made a preventive by removing the failure prone units ( HEI Distributors and the other stuff mostly bearing a thick Delco script ). And we fixed sveral Delco alternators "on the fly" by just resoldering the wire to the diodes.
They where under tension and free in the case so they vibrate loose in the solderspot. Millions from them where in Opels and every machanic knew what to do. ( 15 minutes if the alternator was out was faster then to get a trade in unit )
Bosch let produce alternators worldwide and I think even in Amerika. ( Somwhere in South Carolina )
The newer Bosch alternator gerneration is a Nippon Denso copy. Bosch has big technolgycal shares with ND and not to forget Bosch bought Zyxxel some 20 years ago. If you look close you will see that nearly all electric stuff from Japan is based on Bosch engeeiering and mostly compatible with Bosch parts.

So the unit is in my eyes junk as delco didnīt gave any clue on what the contacts are. I remeber in the old times they had a EE marking for both contacts and if you have not the wire shematic and the connector with some wires to find the colorcode you search for a while as the manufactorer keept things under cover ( donīt ask me for what, maybe to frustrate mechanics or hobby mechanics ? oh no they saved 1$ when making the tools for the housing maybe they even never thought about it, just a moment search for Ignazio Lopez and you know they thought about it )

The question is Bosch a german company or Delco a american is hard to tell. Bosch pays taxes on every place they produce parts and is since years a global player with engeneers from all over the world working on the main industrial countrys close with every car company who is pushing the technology. The Bosch philosphie is not bound to people thinking in little boxes and they are not interesstet to built things cheaper as they know they canīt win that race. They are on the front end inventing new things and saleing technology and solutions. But a Bosch part is still only hardware and not a miracle. Hardware has duty cycle and can fail even if you put in the best, So as engeneer you have to find the "cut"between dutycycle/lifetime and the investet parts compared to the sale price and how the costumer will use that part ( You know overengeneering is bad buisnes )

As far I know no car manufactorer has a fuse between alternator and the starter or the battery so if **** happens all will melt the wire into a weld line. A fuse in that line is a higer risk to failure then a alterntor failure and just imagen the fuse will blow in the middle of the night when you have full load on the devices. The free wheeling alternator will be without balast and melt in sceounds the doides out and you will sit in the dark while coasting maybe on a hill down winding road with no electric power. OK if the fuse sits correct you still can run from the battery and if you set it up with a saefty circuit for the alternator the part will survive when the starter blows the fuse or the fuse blows itself.

When the alternator burns trough and shortens you still have some secounds to stop and do the best to rescue yourself and even what is in the car ( family, package, purse ) or you also can rescue the car.
Normaly the wire will work like a fuse and melt mesh by mesh untill the connecton is interruptet.

And you are right a wire loom is just a bundle from wires with spade and other connectors. I know that american cars had the wires mostly in a splitable wire pipe and you can pull single wires or splice in things simple. But basically they are wires and connectors. The difference is on the VW units you can see the wires and follow them without spliting a tube and the VW wires used a bit thicker isolation and a more UV resistent PVC to compensate. Itsjust a other philosphie to run curency trough a car but the basicis are the same even on negative ground cars. Only a bit different cars are Loutus as they switch the devices on the ground side and not on the plus side. And the color codes are not international standard and on FIAT/Ferarri the brown wire isnīt ground and the black wire isnīt ignition.

A superior design would be to run a Bus system. Guess witch company made that standards and with car had the first bus system saled to the costumer and guess what the machanics think about searching problems and fixing things in CAN devices.
They love simple wirelooms and simple things. See it and fix it.

If want to have fun then ask any old Corvette driver about his displays and how to fix them or search for a electric bug in a Cadillac Alante, or a Oldsmobile 88 Coupe. OK those cars are more complex and stuffed with gadgets to entertain the drivers while siting in stop & go.

BTW the 914 wireloom was made for a little sportscar and for a competive marked and reflects the design of that time. Now even better the 914 was a littel markstone in car electric.
It was the first europe ( or worldwide ? ) car using a prewired dashborad witch was prepared seperate from the body and the 914 was the first car with a main electric circuit board concentrating many funktions without wireloom and making repair easyier ( Just swap the board ). And if you ask a car engeneer today for witch duty cycle cars are made you will hear just enogh to cover the waranty time for sure and it should hold even longer but 30 years are a damn long time for corrosion and other things. If they should work on the level from airplanes we need to refurbrish the part regulary and only approved persons are allowed to do repairs and sign with there name and are responsible if they made a fault.
The good thing on those guys is they know what the do and donīt make shortcuts. The bad thing is they are not working for free.

The "nice" thing on a Bosch ( even Lucas or Marelli ) alternator is that the terminals have little numbers or other marks showing what it is and can be wired up like the original unit without to much guesswork or the risk to shoot something to parts heaven. Wounder if you get waranty on a shoot alternator by missconnecting. OK as most parts dealer will not find out untill the guy returns a secound or third time. with the same problem.

I also suggestet to trade the Delco unit into a Bosch. I think there is a difference between dump something and trash something.
( maybe I was fouled by the brit versus american terminology again ? )

Grüsse

Sorry for the long rant mode

BTW I was once "involved" in a V8 swap as well and we used a Bosch unit from Audi with a sperate cooling hose to go sure.
( asseen on Porsche 924/928 too )