Big displacement 4

[JEM]

I am looking for any BTDT info on building a big 4 engine, by that I mean 2.5 or over. I will be using the car for autocross and hillclimbs with some street use. I think that with modern EFI and ignition 200 or so hp should be possible. This seems to me to be a way to get 6 cyl. hp at a lot less cost. I am interested in anyones ideas pro or con. Also best places to buy parts for this project.

Thanks,
Jerry

[Malevolentfrog]

Raby at aircooledtechnology.com would be Your best bet for a big type IV. He can be found in here. His user name is Massive type IV. Thanks

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

We've been hearing not completely happy things about the quality of the cylinders in the 103mm, 104mm, and 105mm sets. Even when they are trued up correctly, they still don't seem to last all that long. Great for a race motor, where you will want to tear it down every season anyway, but not so great for a street motor.

Shad Laws, who hangs out over on the Shoptalk Forums BBSes (http://www.shoptalkforums.com), has come up with something new which just might be the best thing since the Type IV motor! If his "nickies" piston and cylinder sets even live up to half of their advance press, they will be truly amazing things. They are very very new, however, and so we don't have long-term results with them yet.

These are CNC-machined all-aluminum cylinders with Nikasil (nickel-silicon) coatings. Nikasil was what was used on 911 cylinders for years; it is a way to get a good durable seal from the piston rings out of an aluminum surface. Shad's "Nickies" cylinders are 102mm in diameter, and have plenty of "beef" and lots of cooling area. They should not go out of round, and since they are all CNC machined, they should be exact in every dimension and not require any tweaking at all. Shad gets good cast pistons to go with these cylinders, and uses some form of Porsche rings that work well with the Nikasil coatings on the cylinders.

Supposedly, this results in better expansion characteristics (the whole thing is aluminum, no cast iron expanding at a different rate!) better cooling, better fit, and all around happiness. In theory, at any rate, these should last on the order of 100K miles with no problems at all. Shad is even saying that they should last quite a bit longer--after all, the 911SC engine with Nikasil cylinders seems to last over 200K miles....

The biggest downside so far: The cost. You really don't want to ask what they're gonna cost...

Raby is going to be trying a set shortly. He thinks 200 HP with them is not going to be any problem whatsoever.

Sorry if this sounds like an ad for the Nickies, it's just that if they really do work the way they sound like they should, it really will be the best thing to happen to the Type IV motor since they put them in the middle of a 914!!!

--DD

[COLDBASS]

Originally posted by JEM
I am looking for any BTDT info on building a big 4 engine, by that I mean 2.5 or over. I will be using the car for autocross and hillclimbs with some street use. I think that with modern EFI and ignition 200 or so hp should be possible. This seems to me to be a way to get 6 cyl. hp at a lot less cost. I am interested in anyones ideas pro or con. Also best places to buy parts for this project.

Thanks,
Jerry

Jerry,

I have a similar project in mind for this spring. I am planning on using the new 102 p/c from Shad Laws, 78.4 mm crank, Web Cam (163?), cylinder heads from probably Headflow Masters (good rep, reasonable prices), Webbs or Dells (undecided), exhaust (undecided not sure if I want to spend the $$$ for a high-end unit). I will probably have FAT do the cases. Ignition probably mallory...Then again I may just have Raby do a turn key for me since I am not in that great of a rush...

This combo should deliver 200 hp, not too far below the stock 3.0 911 motors, atlhough the package should weigh less...primary use would be to "spank" a few knucklehead friends in their non-Porsche vehicles...I like hearing "Type IV VW motor can't do that..."

Not sure if its any cheaper than a 6, I've priced used 3.0l motors at approx. $5,500-6,000

Good Luck,

Bob

[BobP]

I still think the big 4 would be quite a bit cheaper. From my look at the other parts involved in a /6 conversion, the 5500-6000 is just the start. With the 4 you have much less changes to the rest of the car.

I am currently debating a 2270 (96x78.4), about 140HP, from Jake either turnkey or kit or a turnkey 2563 (102x78.4), about 200HP. I will go EFI either way. My big concern is exhaust and heating. With the 2270 I can probably get away with 73-74 2liter heat exchangers, with the 2.5l I really don't think that will work. Where I live in Western New York, no heat or defrosters means a REALLY short season, especially for the wife, spring and fall mornings and evenings can be chilly. Gas heaters have been suggested, but I am not sure there is really room in the 914 engine compartment for that and I will not give up a trunk.

[JEM]

I looked at going with a 6 but at an average price of about $4500 for a used 3.0 or 3.2,then at least $2500 or more for the parts to put it in the car, a big 4 started to make sence to me. From what I have found so far, I think a 200 hp 4 could be built for $5000 or less.
Thanks for all the info.
Jerry

[J P Stein]

Bruce Anderson says that the type 4 bottom end will support
about 130 hp. Above that (says he), the case starts squirming around, oblonging the bearings and main bores. That was enough to scare me off the idea.
From what I've read, the failure mode is a leaking rear main,
if not rebuilt, the crank breaks due to slop in the bearings.

Sportcar racers getting 200 hp bring extra hand grenades to the wars. They spend lotso money on keeping the heads cool. Cases seem to be disposable items.

My t-4 had cracks in both heads and it was a stock, 2.0L.

It's your money. Do what you want.

[rich]

I agree, the blocks and cranks are won't take it. I guess a big chunk of billet could fix the problem, but why. The bigger you build it the faster it will go pop! Try this, Spin a one gallon pail of water around until your arm pulls out of your socket. Then try is with a 5 gallon pail. Which arm came off first. If you change the size of the piston, you need to change the size of the rod, this adds weight, then it changes the connecting rod ratio, so you need to change the stroke to correct the harmonics, one thing just leads to another. By the time your done,the thing is so exotic you have to feed it lobster through a silver funnel. I think it's better to just add a couple more cylinders. This approch will ensure the harmonics will stay within the limits of the materials and processes currently in use on this planet, at a price the masses can afford. The above post states some early dis-satisfaction with the big aluminium Jugs. The big bore jugs may need a gurdle to help stablize them. But that means more heat, and the viscious circle starts over. Unlike a water cooled block,you can't core fill the thing.
A cheap conversion for the six would help. Is there any reason an oil tank should cost so much?

boy I'm going to hear about this one...

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

The BIG IV is the way to go.

we are consistantly making from 130-160 BHP with our 2270 series of engines in various stages of tune/powerbands..

With the Nikisil cylinders, 200 HP is a reality, they cool so damn well, the designer of them is running them with head temps of 310 degrees for over an hour at 80+ mph in a fastback on a 2600cc engine. This allows way more compression to be SAFELY used and that makes bigger power, that will last..

The 2270 is the best engine series we have, the smaller bore is the key, we make the power with the cam and heads, and make the torque with the crank.

I should have torque plots on my site in a week or so, we are not going to post any HP numbers....real power is made below 5,252 RPM(on a TIV engine), and thats always torque..

[COLDBASS]

I don't want to start WWIII...However, Meaning no disrespect to anyone,

There are plenty of 2270s with greater than 130+ hp that have been around for awhile with many "hard" miles. I think that the longevity issue is resolved up to 78.4 mm strokes.

These days I am not sure if Bruce is really interested in researching the progress of Type IV developement. I always thought that he was biased against 4 cylinder motors, especially Type IVs.

Cooling is always a consideration just like with the 6ers, hence oil tanks, additional oil coolers w/fans, 911 style shrouds. etc. Speaking from personal experience, the cylinder head issue is also addressed by reinforcing specific areas, nothing new or exotic here. Most experienced builders know about these procedures.

Nothing against going with a six, I plan to do it with a 911. I just don't feel that these days one has to sell his soul to achieve reliability, longevity, and high performance from a Type IV. FAT performance has been doing this for years. Jake and Shad are simply taking it through the next stage of evolution.

I said before, I'll take German air-cooled technology and American creativity any day. Too many hard core Type IV free thinkers out there to dismiss.

Not sure about the Lobster/funnel thing but I applaude your analogy...I sincerely like it...

Respectfully,
Bob

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

The cooling is always an issue, the new cylinder technology is correcting expansion rates as well as keeping the cylinders cooler with less friction and the heat dissipation is unreal. I run 9:1 on heavy breathing engines with a stock cooling system alot.

The "Nickies" are basically a 911 set of cylinders that were designed just for the TIV, they use the same bore as a 3.8 liter, same oiling rings and etc as well. This is all proven technology, they last 200K in a 911 engine, every spec is the same.

I have one customer that has had a 2270 that built before I was even in business, he has beat it hard, and it has been in the car since I installed it..This engine does nt have my updated oil system, modified rod/s journals and does not have 22mm pinned pistons, and stock 2.0 heads..All these are things that evolved with time

[J P Stein]

Coldbass wrote:

>I don't want to start WWIII...However, Meaning no disrespect >to anyone,

No offence taken. Just good solid debate.

(Snip)There are plenty of 2270s with greater than 130+ hp that >have been around for awhile with many "hard" miles. I think >that the longevity issue is resolved up to 78.4 mm strokes.(snip)


Ya think so? Who has one in a 914? Don't see too many posters here or on the Rennlist singing the praises of their car/engine combo......none, in fact. Is there a world outside the internet? Do you have one?

(snip)These days I am not sure if Bruce is really interested in >researching the progress of Type IV developement. I always >thought that he was biased against 4 cylinder motors, >especially Type IVs. (snip)

What development would that be? Stronger cases? Got any pics?

Bruce has biases, I'm sure. Mostly tho, in regards to Porsches, he just calls em' like he sees em' (from my experience). He ain't trying to sell ya nothin'.....cept maybe a book. Blow off his opinion
..........really, feel free. Pick your own guru. It's a free country.

(snip)Speaking from personal experience, the cylinder head issue >is also addressed by reinforcing specific areas, nothing new or >exotic here. Most experienced builders know about these >procedures. (snip)

Ah....a speed secret. From the number of dropped seats and cracked heads I hear about, it would be nice if you shared this info with us. Some pictures, maybe? Costs? Suppliers of the service?


Let's face it. ANY engine can have it's capacity increased to supply more power. There is an upper limit of structual/thermal capacity for each of them. These parameters can be exceeded if one is willing to accept a decline in longevity. Add enough money and the longevity issues can be stretched out.

I'll say it again: It' your money.......

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

THE TIV WILL TAKE MORE THAN 130HP!!

Any engine that can push a 5,000 pound VW bus down the road for over 100,000 miles singing at 38-4200 RPM all the time can take more than 130HP.

The TIV case is super tough, the key is correctly balanced parts and a combination of rod ratio that takes the weight away from the crankcase (longer, lighter rods with better journals)

I consistantly run 2.3 engines and customers get 40K on them until I tell them to pop the heads off for normal maintenence, (even a stocker should get this) The cases do not show signs of main saddle collapse.

It is all in the configuration, trust me.....If they were that bad to keep alive I would have been forced out of business by now.

[John Rogers]

As an owner of a large type IV for the past several years I have learned quite a few things: The larger the engine, the less it is reliable. I had a 2.4l and it raced for several seasons but my 2.8l gets opened at least once a year. A longer stroke will make the engine come off corners really well, but you need a crank such as a Pauter with the largest size bearings you can run. The flywheel has to be pinned to the crank with at least 3 or 4 pins to handle the shear load on the flywheel bolts from the extra power. Use forged rods and make sure everything is balanced. Use the lightest valve train possible, type 1 lifters, aluminum roller rockers, titanium retiners, etc to ease the load on the valve train. Use dual valve springs that are matched exactly and the best set of heads you can afford with flowing preferable to just port/polish. I have 10.5 toone compression so I burn race gas most all the time and use a 009 distributor with Compufire and MSD to handle the spark. To make sure this all lasts, a dry sump system with a two stage pump (three stage is better), oil cooler in the front and a large oil tank is just about mandatory or the engine will burn up. The 911 alt/fan housing is about the only thing that will keep the heads cool and if you try to use the stock tin and fan they will overheat and drop the seats. To handle the power, a limited slip or locked diff is just about mandatory since you will smoke the inside rear wheel on any race course when you mash the throttle. With the limited slip the car will shoot out of a corner like a rocket! Well, what is the bottom line? The cost of a big 4, done correctly is about the same as a six conversion, but the car weighs less and due to the increased torque it can hold off most 911s up to about 100 or 110 MPH or so and by then it is time to brake and that's why I like mine. Good luck.

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

After 2.3 liters, the engines become less reliable, Shads new cylinders will solve some of the problems with the big engines, for sure..

Personally I like to make big power with smaller displacements, they last longer, even in a high stste of tune..

[turboteener]

I am tired of hearing about how bad the T4 engine is. I have a 2056 that is beat on everyday. Still makes 140hp. I drive it in every condition known to man. I personally know of type four drag motors running 625hp consistently. I guess they must be some strange freaks of nature. The engines can handle it if assembled properly. If T4 owners took as much time and attention to detail as it takes to assemble a 911 engine then there wouldn't be as many problems with the 4 cylinder engines. What many folks call a crappy design is poor owner maintanence or care. I have seen archaic Chevys and Fords with several hundred thousand miles and I have seen type4 engines with the same amount. They can do it. Obviously all engines are different. Engines are compromises. You can't have 5000hp, 100k realiabilty and 50+ mpg. Not happening. Make up your mind what compromises you are willing to make and stick to it. Build accordingly and everything will be good.

[COLDBASS]

JP,

"No offense taken, Just good solid debate"

Yes, this is a very civil discussion, I wish to follow this forum's protocol/etiquette...and I actually share some of your views...

I wanted to clarify any misunderstandings that may have resulted from my previous post. As you know the Type IV motor was the engine utilized in a few Porsche models, several VW models, and off-road sand vehicles. For a better objective perspective on the TYPE IV configurations, developements, and challenges, the "STF Type4rum" is probably a more objective forum to research.

Yes, One of the Porsches that I own is a 1976 Porsche with a factory 2.0 l motor. Currently, it is almost complete with a 2056 cc configuration. My HP expectations are approx 130hp. Once I make a final decsion on exhaust and ignition, I will seek a shop with a dyno for the fine tuning and final hp/torque figures. This limited engine configuration was based on research and procedures/configurations/dyno results posted by the various Type IV "builder" websites and the State of California emissions restrictions/parameters.

I too greatly respect and praise Bruce Anderson. His articles and columns are the primary reason that I continue to purchase the "Excellence" publication. IMHO, I have no doubt that he is a Porsche Guru. I have and I am planning future Porsche purchases based on his information. I simply do not believe that he is a Type IV guru thats all. I do not dimiss his opionion. If it were possible, I would like to hear his opinion on current Type IV developements/configurations.

I refer to developements as newer assembly procedures, as well as, new products (Nikasil 102mm P/CS, 911 style cooling shrouds, reduced base camshafts on stroker engines, reinforcing cylinder heads, etc.)

I cannot take any credit for the cylinder head reinforcing procedure, if you are sincerely interested in facts, pictures, vendors etc, then this month's article in "VW Trends" provides details of this procedure. In fact, Mr. Jake Raby (Massive Type IV) is featured on this article. I would imagine that the costs would vary per geographical region.

I cannot not address the larger displacement Type IV longevity issue as I was simply addressing the 130 hp limit statement and my personal configuration.

You are correct, there is a trade off with logevitiy vs. performance, I just do not feel that it is at the 130hp ceiling. Although, I define longevity as 100k miles with a valve job at approx 30-40k.

Sure, if I came accross a clean, affordable ( defined as within my budget and criteria) 914-6 vs a clean pre '74 914-4 then I would wish to purchase both. Nothing wrong with owning the best of both 914 worlds.

I respect everyone's right to an opinion and I truly hope that I did not offend anyone with my views...

[sammyg2]

Turboteener writes:
"I personally know of type four drag motors running 625hp consistently. I guess they must be some strange freaks of nature. The engines can handle it if assembled properly."

O...........K............,

Can you give us some more details of one of these engines?
I am a little skeptical. Are they running a factory case, or a custom made billet assembly? How long do these miracles last?

Oh, BTW, you can't turbo a teener :-)

[Bleyseng]

I would like a few pictures and spec's of these 625HP motors or atleast a web site.
Cold Bass, How are you obtaining 130hp out of your 2056 w/FI?Pass on some secrets!
Geoff

[John Rogers]

Two sites are Pauter and Autocraft. They make lots of great parts that I am currently using such as Pauter's crank, rods and roller rockers. I use Autocraft's external oil pump and dry sump cover, but my case was drilled for a type 1 bottom cover. They both make their own cases, integrated barrel assemblies and heads. They can make over 1000 HP with a blower and alcohol! Of course these engines only go full throttle for 7 or 8 seconds! They have a one piece case design and a heavy duty bearing girdle for lower end strength, the barrels are molded together and use o-ring seals for the type 1 heads which are much more efficient design than our type 4 heads. Do a search and you'll find the websites. One note, these cases and heads are not legal for VARA, SCCA, HSR or PCA racing as far as I know. Good luck.