2.0 FI vs Carbs?

[JRust]

Been having trouble with my car running to rich. I took it into local
VW shop. The guy say's it might be engine temp sensor like a few of you mentioned in my earlier post. The guy did menton I might want to think about switching to carbs. I didn't ask why. I did consider it when I did my rebuild. I decided against it because of some article I read. Anyway what are the pros & cons of both systems. $ wise is fuel injection cheaper to maintain or carbs. Any input is great!! Seems like I heard you get better performance out of carbs but have to adjust more. Ideas please

[J P Stein]

My t-4 had the FI on it and I never considered swapping it out.
Maintaince is more expensive than carbs. Just grab a PP cataloge and price out the bits (yike), but........

Your reasale value will go right down the tubes. Originality will become even more important as time passes. How many guys have you seen (on the net) looking to buy a hotrodded T-4, 914?
Those willing to pay big bucks want originality (except racers, of course).

Carbs stink.....no other way to put it. If you like the smell of gas, this isn't a problem. Most of the "kits" are not well engineered.
Gas milage heads south, also.

There is a learning curve to each system. Figure a year to get used to tuning the carbs
I grew up with carbs, but the Webers took some learnin'.
FI is basicly tracking down a failed part in the system and replacing it....which can be challenging , also. ...ask DD :-)

Your "bug" mechanic prolly knows zip about your FI system. It's up to you to become an expert or find another wrench.

[pbanders]

This subject has been beat to death on this forum, check the archives. Here are a few things to consider:

1. In some states, conversion to carbs will make it impossible to pass smog on the visual inspection. Even if carbs are permitted visually, you may have trouble passing smog as carbs produce higher emissions.
2. Conversion to carbs on a stock motor will not produce more HP and will adversely affect starting, driveability, performance, and emissions.
3. The cost of a complete carb conversion (carbs, manifolds, linkage bar, fuel pump, fittings, etc.) usually costs more than fixing problems on the FI system.
4. Cars with carb conversions usually sell for less than those with properly-operating FI systems.

On the positive side for carbs, if you're building a big-bore engine and want a high-lift, high-duration cam (not desireable for street use, IMO), carbs are the way to go. Or if you want to build a high-boost turbo or supercharged engine. Jack Raby uses carb on his big bore engines and the feedback is very positive. Personally, I used to have a 2.2L motor with carbs - it worked OK at best in comparison with properly operating D-Jet.

[JRust]

Thanks guys I don't want to lower the value of my tweener at all!!
Sound like carbs is the way to go. My wrench knows t4's very well
but I think he's just a carb guy. Who knows I'm still waiting to find the verdict on the problem. I'll let you know what it was. I would say the odds of me switching to carbs are pretty crappy. Thanks for your great input just what I needed

[rice_killer]

i think somthing you guys fail to mention is that theres not much value in these cars. lowering the resail value from $5000 to $4750 isnt a big deal.

another plus to carbs is that they can be worked on by ANYONE with basic knowledge in n/a engines.

my dad is putting carbs on his 914 because his fi is messed up, he doesnt know how to work on fi and doesnt wanna know. he has only used carbs for the 35 years he was a mechanic and fi is a foreign scary land for him.

not to mention you can buy a carb rebuild kit anywhere, but to trak down 914 fi parts while your stranded in hikville no internet town? forget it!

fi has its advantages and disavdantages just like carbs do. for most people fi is probably better. for me it isnt. for my dad it isnt.


if carbs or fi is for you depends on you and how you drive.
no one can say "carbs suck" or "fi is crap" beause it all depends on the situation.

[pbanders]

Personally, and from what I've seen in following 914 prices over the past 20 years, the reduction in value of a 914 from a carb conversion can vary from a few hundred bucks (in states where it doesn't matter) to as much as $3000 for equivalent cars (e.g. pristine '74 2.0L in CA: carbed car worth about $5K vs. $8K for a car with stock FI).

All depends on where you are and what you want.

[DDS]

If your car isn't pristine it doesn't matter much for resale if smog isn't an issue. Dual Webers on a properly done engine probably don't hurt much at all.

[Bleyseng]

I prefer the FI with the "stock or near stock" engines as it does produce more mid-range torque than carbs. That is what street cars are all about, torque! ( Great for the Autoxing too)
What I have seen locally is the carb cars usually have not been taken care of. The FI had a problem sooo the cheap solution is to put on carbs in a half assed way.
The FI cars are usually better cars that have seen regular maintanance and been taken care of. Hence worth more $$$$$
This is not always the rule but ....
I too had carbs (Dells) which ran great at WOT other than that ....the noise...smell...keeping them insync...tuned... I prefer to drive the car than always be working on it so I re-installed the FI off a junkyard car. I have learned how to fix and tune the DJet which was really pretty easy with all the resouces on the net now.
Geoff

[Joe Bob]

This old song and dance AGAIN....

Putting carbs on a STOCK engine is like wrestling with a pig....waste of time and annoys the pig.....it's a sign that someone was too lazy or ignorant of the FI system.

Crappy gass mileage and reduces the value of the car. Carbs with a stock cam and/or displacement will NOT increase performance.

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Putting carbs on a PROPERLY done, cammed, big bore motor is OK if you can not afford a modern FI system. The stock D-Jet FI can be modified to work with cammed and stroked/bored motors but it takes more than a few brain cells.....

[rice_killer]

another plus for carbs for me and my father is we bolth live in south florida, and florida has no emissions laws.

and the gas mileage i would think is mostly a moot point becuase most people dont drive their 914's as an econobox work vehicle. thats what the civic or vw rabbit diesel is for.
but notice i said "most" people dont do that, im sure some do. hell i do. my 914 is my primary transportation.
i can go down to my local auto parts store and buy a $20 dollar carb rebuild kit and get like new performance again.

like i says earlier, it all depends on the situation. somtimes carbs are better, somtimes FI is. just depends.

[Eat-um-up]

Carbs, Fi.. bah.. Carbs are cool if you like haveing no gas milage.. But personally i like the sound of those big Throats opening up. and my car has been rewired and the on board circut board and such is completely waisted.. So im stuck with carbs.. Fi however if you get it tuned right works great as long as all the parts stay operational.

[rdvnac]

I am 6 months in to a nationwide search for a top-quality 914. I have amassed detailed info on many 914s for sale, and learned basic info on many dozens more. As a result I have unintentionally become something of an expert on current 914 "inventory" and pricing.

IME, at least for the "nicer" condition cars, carbs are a noteworthy deduction in resale value. In the cars I tracked, owners generally asked less, and they virtually always got less, than the FI cars.

I also have experienced the different (and IMHO, much poorer) drivability characteristics of the carb cars. If carbs are your strong personal preference, then go for it, but otherwise spend the time to sort out the FI, it's well worth it.

Just my $.02.

[JP Noonan]

Hey Rice Killer, where you at in south Fla? Your e-mail dosn't work, I'm in Miami, thought we could get our 914's together.

[DDS]

Mikez, most pigs enjoy wrestling if you follow amateur rules, its that WWF stuff that annoys them. (so they say anyway) Also, it is an excellent use of time as concurrently develops abs of steel, leaner bacon and gets them out from in front of the TV. Just my.02.

Trying to teach them to SING is a complete waste of time, and really does annoy them.

[rice_killer]

haha i dont think you would want to get your 914 next to mine. i have no interrior exept for a drivers seat and a steering wheel and dash. and some very attrative rust holes on the floorboard (i am in the proess of fixing the rust holes) not to mention a mismathed body parts and all kinds of niks and ginds and my driver side door was almost tooken off by a fellow motorist (the door hit the front wheel) as you can see im about 1/4 way through a full restoration.

if you really wanna meet up though, im game for it. my cars still got all the legal parts needed to drive and i still have a tag and insurane on it.

i am in west palm beach, about 50-60 miles from miami. i frequently drive down to the florida keys each weekend with the 914 (to work on it at a shop) i could swing by miami on the way down and chill for a couple hours or sothing. ill email you.


edit: it seems as though you dont have your email showing as well. just email me at WHATHAVEIBECOME@HOTMAIL.COM

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

another plus to carbs is that they can be worked on by ANYONE with basic knowledge in n/a engines.

I am an exception to that--I have "basic knowledge" in at least some naturally-aspirated engines, and I don't know squat about carbs.


no one can say "carbs suck" or "fi is crap" beause it all depends on the situation.

But they do suck--that's how they work! Of course, in that case FI blows rather than sucking...

I won't tell you what to do with your 914, but I wouldn't put carbs on mine.

--DD

[rice_killer]

oh come on dave you cant tell me you never worked on a carb before. what about a weedwaker or lawnmower? those side draft carbs are *basicly* the same design as any down draft carb on a car. with the exeption of an aceleration pump.
if u can wrench on a lawn mower or motorcycle you an wrench on a 914 carb.
just a little more complex. you know you dont even need a fuel pump on a arborator if you mount the gas tank a couple feet over the arb the gravity provides fuel pressure. for testing purposes anyways. dont think id wanna drive around with a gas tank mounted on the roof.

last weekend i went to my fathers house to tune my carb and put one of those pertronix ignitor eletronic ignition modules in (i bought it at PP)

[JRust]

Thanks for all the info! My curiousity has been satisfied. I will definately not be switching to carbs! I guess I hit on a little sore spot with a few of you. This bbs is great. Someday I hope to be of help to someone else. Until then I'll just keep buggin you guy's for advice! Thanks again

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

oh come on dave you cant tell me you never worked on a carb before. what about a weedwaker or lawnmower?

Nope, never. And I have no need or desire to start.

--DD

[rice_killer]

theres no sore spots here