custom steel flares

John Kelly · 09-02-2002, 12:59 PM

Hi Folks,

I was invited by Ken Alsobrook to have a look at this forum and see the interest in steel flares for 914s. I was toying with the idea a few years ago, but gave up as there did not appear to be enough interest. I recently picked up a 914, the parts from which I'm building a mid engined, gullwing doored, flared Karmann Ghia. Although I do make a few sets of steel Ghia flares for customers a year, the interests of the Ghia community are more in restoration, than customizing. It seems the 914 community is a little more open minded, and dare I say it, less anal. I thought I might build a prototype rear flare since I have the 914 body handy. At this time I'm not interested in making the GT flares, but am looking at simply moving the stock fender lips out a bit, and shaping sheet metal to be welded in. I think this is a more natural looking transition of shape than the GT flares, and would be cheaper as well. I've looked through this forum, and seen some of the interesting ways people are making their own flares. I'd like to add a few more possibilties to the mix.
1. A hand held air powered planishing hammer (sometimes called a fender hammer) would be a great way to add shape to a fender without removing it. Essentially the hand held planishing hammer is like an air powered hammer and dolly, but much faster. I'll try to attach a picture of my home made one. It utilizes a 4x rivet gun, and lower dies made from grade 8 bolts. I made the frame, and bought the parts from a fellow metalshaper.
2. Making inserts with the English Wheel which is my prefered method. I would cut around the wheel opening flange move it out, and make the insert blend with the body using a slight reverse curve on the edges if necessary.
3. For GT flares it would be possible to use tuck, and shrink techniques (tucking tool, and wood mallet), combined with the English Wheel to make them. This might be a future project for me if I have time, although I don't like to do parts that are available elsewhere as a rule. I do have access to a car with steel GT flares for patterns.
For some pictures of my work, see my web site or check this link for more up to date work:
http://metalshapers.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?ownerid=9990093068868
The flares on the Ghia roadster on my web site are the old style I made years ago. The ones on the link above are an improvement (I think) It will be about a month before I can get the 914 in the shop to study the shape some more, and I will post as I have time to make progress.

Thanks for the space to ramble.

John Kelly, www.ghiaspecialties.com

SummerSledSix · 09-02-2002, 02:06 PM

Nice work, John, welcome to 914 land! There have been a few stalwart souls who've fabricated their own flares both on and off the car, I'm sure they'll chime in shortly. I'm considering a flares project this winter, along the lines you describe, ie not the stubby GT look, but more of a smooth "inflation" of the existing fender profile from the door seam back to the tail lamp. I believe A.I.R. sells a fiberglas version of similar shape.

I'm hoping the shallower curves involved would be easier to fabricate than the GT flares. Am real curious about using an english wheel, looks like fun. How many hours did you invest in the Ghia flares you've shown on your website, including fabbing the buck(s)? Can you use MDF for the bucks, or do you need hardwood (only needs to last for 2-3 flares worth)?

Rleog · Rleog's Garage

If you came up with a metal rear fender flare that was significantly less expensive than the metal GT flares, even if it was not the traditional 914 flare shape, I think you could generate a lot of interest. Slicing the rear fender, shaping, and welding in pie shaped sections is over my head. I would be more likely to have flares welded on if they weren't so expensive.

Bob G

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

Hi, John! I recall seeing some of your work quite a few years ago (notably nose sections for Ghias), and thought it would be neat if you did some 914 stuff.

I think you'll find there is a lot of interest in good-looking flares that are cheaper than the steel GT ones. If you can get the price down to that of the fiberglass GT flares, you may actually get quite a few people to put money down on them.

There are a number of different types of 914 people, most of whom your work probably won't appeal to.

The keep-it-stock crowd, including the GT-replica-type crowd, will want the boxy GT flares. The gotta-do-it-all-myself crowd will want to make their own no matter what. The tire-kickers will think it's really cool but won't actually spend any money on them.

Happily, there is a decent-sized segment of 914 folks that think that non-GT flares are a good thing, and may even be willing to pay for them. But the lower the price the better; 914'ers have a (partly-deserved) reputation for being cheap.

--DD

John Kelly · 09-02-2002, 02:57 PM

John wrote:

"Am real curious about using an english wheel, looks like fun. How many hours did you invest in the Ghia flares you've shown on your website, including fabbing the buck(s)? Can you use MDF for the bucks, or do you need hardwood (only needs to last for 2-3 flares worth)?"
__________________
John
Yellow '76 914 3.2
(YPAF)

Hi John,

I invested hundreds of hours developing the Ghia flares, and making the bucks. I used pine boards because they are easy to shape with a draw knife. The buck does not have to be incredibly durable except for the wheel opening flange for the rear flares which I hammer form, so it's made from steel. Bucks typically are just a form to check your shape on, not a tool for making shape. I don't think I will need a buck for the custom 914 flares as they would be a more simple shape. Good patterns and some contour profile guides should do the trick. The English Wheel is a great tool, but takes a lot of practice, and can be frustrating for beginners.
Bob, I don't know what the cost would be yet, just a lot cheaper than the Ghia flares I make now ($1150 for a set of four), and of course a lot cheaper than GT flares. They would make all the work of the cut and splice technique unnecessary, and if properly installed, could be done with little or no filler. By the way, looking through the past posts I saw a black 914 with a custom rear flare that looks a lot like what I plan to make. I will be building the rear flare around a 16x7 Porsche alloy with a 1" thick adaptor, as this is what I have on hand.

Thanks, John www.ghiaspecialties.com

John Kelly · 09-02-2002, 03:10 PM

Dave wrote:
"Happily, there is a decent-sized segment of 914 folks that think that non-GT flares are a good thing, and may even be willing to pay for them. But the lower the price the better; 914'ers have a (partly-deserved) reputation for being cheap."

Hi Dave,

I'm used to it. I'm pretty cheap/frugal myself! Luckily I don't have to make lots of money, or I would be working on the cars of others, instead of making custom metal panels, which is what I enjoy. There is not a lot of money in the craft unless you are very famous or work on streetrods and harleys. In some ways I'm glad that I'm not swamped with orders...I would not have time for my own projects. Like a lot of car folks, I want to spend time on my projects, not making money. Thanks for the response! I'll have a lot of questions once I get to the mid mounted engine part of my project.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

Rleog · Rleog's Garage

John -

Good to have you on this board. I'll definitely be following your project with interest.

Bob G

Brad Roberts · 09-02-2002, 10:03 PM

DaveD and others:

What do people want to pay for the GT flares ??

How many sets could I sell at say 600$ (for all four)

I happen to know where a certain metal stamping machine sits idle for 8 months out of the year and is plenty big enough to stamp out GT flares (we have 2 sets collecting dust that where used to make stamping and trim dies)

I like the work this guy does, but his ability to fill orders in a timely fashion would kill him.

B

Jeroen · 09-03-2002, 01:36 AM

Hey Brad,

I think that at $600 for a set of four, you'd be a serious competitor on the market!

AFAIK the steel GT flares are only available through Porsche and they recently raised the prices to an absurd level (about $3000 for a set of four)...

Cheers,

Jeroen

1bad914 · 09-03-2002, 03:51 AM

Welcome John,
I've enjoyed your work and comments on the various Karmann Ghia mail lists. I would love to see your 914 flares when complete. If they are any way near the quality of the Ghia parts you make, I'm sure they will be in demand. You are correct, the Ghia bunch can be a little anal. I was chastized for customizing mine. Oh well, it's my car! Welcome!

Randy Davidson

John Kelly · 09-03-2002, 06:27 AM

Hi Randy,

I knew there would be some crossover between Ghias and 914s! Seems like a natural. Ghias should have gone the route of the 914, and turned into a real sports car. I figure the back seat is not a useful space anyway except for an engine or stereo. Your Ghia looks great. I particularly like the fully polished Rivieras, and the roof treatment. Did you sell the car? Thanks for the welcome!

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

A bit of trivia for you--
I hear that the Type III Ghia was axed in part to make room for the 914 on the Karmann plant's assembly line.

Anyway... Brad, how many sets do you need to sell? You remember all of the fuss and furor over the "Doctor's" $650/set flares, right? I expect you could sell a run of 50 sets out in a couple of months, especially if you stuck small ads in the Porsche mags. Very possibly more than that, but you might have to somehow reassure people that your parts were not "vapor ware" that you were collecting deposits on...

--DD

1bad914 · 09-03-2002, 08:14 AM

Yes John, I sadly sold my car. My son just started his freshman year in college and it is not cheap. You think you invest well for college and then the market craps all over your investments and you have to sell some of your toys to make up the difference. Oh well, the things we do for our kids. I''ll resore another one in the future. In the mean time I might be interested in the flares. SInce I've already made my 914 a slope nose I thought I would just go all the way and flare the fenders to. I have access to a 916 nose and may add that later. We'll see. I think you'll like thge 914, it handles much better than any of my VW's. Not even in the same class.

Randy