Megasquirt - OK, fess up

[pbanders]

My question is simple. Anyone here (not second-hand info, please) actually install a MS and get it working to the same operating level as a stock D-Jet system in good working order? I mean the whole enchilada, cold start, warm start, acceleration, overrun, part load, full load, etc. Same or better power output than stock, too. And same or lower emissions.

If so, then what did you do to install it? What are the parameter sets that you used?

I have yet to hear of a MS that is installed and fully debugged, yet everyone and their brother here seems ready to buy one sight unseen.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

I do not know of anyone who has gotten MS running and debugged on a 914 yet. There have been two installs into 914s so far, but they never got worked out properly. (Mueller decided to Sawzall his car instead... )

It sounds as if there is at least one Type IV Bus installation that is working about as well as its former stock L-jet.

I like to think that I will be doing a completed MS install eventually, but I'm realistic enough to know that the chances are that it won't be very soon.

--DD

[pbanders]

I think Mike never got his MS working very well, IIRC, his dyno runs were well below expected HP output. He also never got to the point of checking all the other running conditions, AFAIK.

I'm pretty sure that with some work, a MS system can replace the stock D-Jet and provide similar drivability, performance, and emissions. But I don't think anyone has done it, yet. And a lot of the people here and on other lists who are seemingly ready to purchase an MS are probably not aware of how much work is required to get it fully operational. Not only the engineering required to fit it to a D-Jet system (e.g. the issues regarding the TPS), but the process of tuning it in.

Dave, if you get an MS, maybe you could set up a project with Brad Roberts to put a package together for retrofitting, with the "how-to's" and a parts list. Jeff Bowlsby has solicited for interest several times regarding modification of the wiring harness to use the MS ECU and other bits. And Brad R. probably has dyno connections to assist with the tuning.

Once some brave soul has gone through this process, we'll have a baseline for the conversions.

[J P Stein]

Bridging the gap between hype and reality can be a spot of bother, eh?

Being a cynical, stuck in the mud, adherent of KISS may be boring, but it saves money, time, and agrivation. Personally, I try sticking to problems that need to be solved.

[mike mueller]

all you naysayers.

kiss my ...oh wait, that's not very nice

True, my dyno numbers did not look very good, but I am to blame for that, not the MS. Being short on time and cheap also, I did not install an O2 sensor and I tuned the car by ear and the seat of my pants. I was/am still learning this animal, but I feel positive I will have it sorted out and running flawlessly.

I also realized that I had a few of the parameters set up incorrectly, but at that point, I had already pulled the engine to repair a broken exhaust stud. I was going to fix the motor and install it right back into my car, but I found a "perfect" chassis so I parted out (sawzalled) my car with plans of putting the MS 2.0 into this perfect '76 chassis.....now the good part:

The seller backed out of the deal after our agreement and so now I have no 914 to stick the MS 2.0 motor into

I'd like to get this running correctly to prove all the neysayers wrong,. I was almost willing to install my complete MS system with the intake and all the sensors on a fellow 914 owners car, but I'd rather have it installed on my own car...when I get one.....

I am working on getting another 914, but it's one thing after another to get this car from the seller. I'm willing to bet money that the MS'ed 2.0 will perform just as well as the stock FI system. Make a few modifications to the engine and with out a doubt, the stock D-Jet won't be able to touch the MS. (in the right hands of course, since it's all about tuning)

[J P Stein]

OK, Mike.
Let's say you invest the MTE necessary to do the job.
Then what have you got?
Will it support 150 (or so) hp?
Will it pass smog?
If the answer to either Q is no, then why bother?
D-jet or carbs will do either, but not both.

If you can get it to do both, I *will* kiss your.....

[Brad Roberts]

Mike and I drove the car to the dyno place. It ran and idled better than any 2.0 I had heard. Very smooth.

I forget the exact numbers, but after the first pull I knew we where onto something. Mike just didnt know what he was doing with the tuning. I watched the 02 sensor from the dyno place and had Mike tune accordingly. I think part of the reason we did not turn a better HP/Torque number is because of Mikes lack of engine building skills... not the MS. (no offense Mike)

I have dyno'd enough stock 2.0's to know what they lay down in essentially stock form. Julius (78k miles on a Euro piston'd stock rebuild) was 88 hp at the rear wheels with a nice 4 into 1 header. On the same day in the same conditions a fresh 2.0 engine with same build specs and header laid down 100hp to the rear wheels. The 88hp car was too rich, but I didnt have time to fool with the injection. The 100hp car was dialed 100%.

The MS reminds me of the small AM radio kit that your parents used to get you. Everybody had to have one, but only a select few made them work. Then you where bored with it.

I have a MOTEC connection that may let us buy MOTEC boards and put them in our own case. The guy has older systems that are brand new but where never sold or "encased" because of new releases. These are NOS.

I really really want to do something like this for all Porsche owners.. I just dont see it happening any time soon. SSI has a production run coming up in the next 30 days..

B

[mike mueller]

Hey B,

No offense taken, I basically "threw" that motor together due to time constraints, now I can take my time to understand the relationship with all the parts. (I think my timing and valve adjustments had been way off)

Production run? Same stuff or anything new?

As with almost everything, the Megasquirt is a compromise.
For the money I don't think it can be beat.
The problem is that one better understand how Fuel Injection works before they spend the time and money on a system such as this.

What is funny about the Megasquirt is that it falls into three groups.

1) Due to the DIY nature and it being dirt cheap as far as similar items go, the Megasquirt gets *****ted upon and critiqued by those that have not seen or used it first hand. "Oh, you have to solder it yourself?" "it's going to fail when you are in the middle of the dessert and you will die!!!!" BS


2) It's cheap and you see on the web that other people are using it..."wow, this is just what the world needs, it's the one thing that all 914 owners need to get rid of the troublesome D-Jet or L-Jet" bull***** I say to this as well.

3) Lastly, those that have bought it and have used it and like it. I have yet to hear of anyone remove their stock FI (or carbs), install a Megasquirt, just to turn around and put the car back to how it was originally. I'm sure some have thought about it, but perseverance has paid off.

Like I said earlier, you MUST have an understanding of Fuel Injection, Electronic would be even better since CIS is not all that related but it's a starting point.

Heck, look at me, I've read countless books on the subject and I still screwed up my first install, but I have not given up.

Mueller, end of rant

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Ayy-men to what Mike said! I started with the second mindset on his list, but I have come around to share his opinion of it.

If we can get MS together and get a good known set of components (e.g., which Saab or Volvo did the TPS come off of?) and fuel maps for a 2.0 engine, we can start edging toward the "MS as a solution to D-jet woes". But the amount of work that it's going to take to get to that point is pretty staggering.

Happily for Mike and a few others, the amount of work it will take to get the MS to be a decent-working FI system for the 914 owner who likes to tinker is a whole lot less. I may get to that point as well myself--eventually.

--DD

[Brad Roberts]

I personally think if we get a good base map together for the brain... most of the worries will be over. It is the tuning that can screw people up. A good map that doesnt burn engines up and easy to find components will be the key to selling a few of these.

Bottom line: will people pay for it ?? I wont persue it unless there is some money to be made. I think there could be a few hundred dollars worth of profit per kit.

I play by the rules..and the SCCA rule makers now allow laptop programmble injection in all classes that the 914 runs. They know the original parts are hard to come by. So.. my target market will be racers and then street guy's.

B

[pbanders]

I think we've already got a good base set for the MS (or any other S-D based system) - the data I extracted from the stock D-Jet system. On my web page, I have graphs of injection time vs. engine speed for load conditions ranging from 15 in. Hg down to 0 in. Hg. I thought Mike was going to use this data as the starting point for his MS table, I don't know if he ever did.

With the test setup I have, I can extract any of the parameters we would likely need from D-jet to program the MS ECU. If you want to include all possible 1.7 and 2.0L setups, I would need someone to donate or lend me two new Bosch MPS's (the 037 and 049). I have my own new 043 MPS, and all of the ECU's for all of the model years.

Here's an example graph from my web page:

[Brad Roberts]

Damn near looks like a 2.0 Dyno pull. Pretty flat.

One of the other pieces that keeps me from diving in feet first into a bolt on MS system: Spark control. I want to get rid of the crappy worn out dizzy's and goto a GM coil pack setup. This will require a advance curve.

Soon.


B

[mike mueller]

Paul,

I have the dyno pulls from the factory 2.0 (1974) manual, from Brad and from another lister.

For mine I used the factory dyno to plot out the VE to set my Map.
(I converted Kpw to ft lbs, I'm not sure, I have to look at my notes again.)

I do know that I messed up with the injector firing,
I picked 2/alternating when it should have been 1/simultaneous. Another mistake of mine was the PWM (time and current for the injectors)

The factory L-Jet fires 1/simultaneous (all four injectors at every spark event, half the req fuel)

It's a learning curve and luckly I didn't fry my motor learning (okay, so I screwed it up another way, LOL)

As Brad mentioned, the biggest weak link to the MS is no spark control.

[Brad Roberts]

I was surprised you didnt burn the engine up.

I did find it humorous when we "found" 20 some odd HP.

Give me spark control and I'll light the fire under my own ass to get something into production.

Beleive it or not.. I get money guy's asking me to involve them and their money for projects. This is one where funding would help.

B

[pbanders]

I understand the interest in spark control, for me, I don't care much. The stock dizzy, in good shape and equipped with a points replacement system (or better), does a good job of setting advance for varying load and engine speed conditions. Of course, you can get the spark control with more sophisticated systems, but you start talking major $$ here. If I'm going to go that far, then I'd want even more: knock sensors, O2 control, etc.

Still hoping to see that fully-debugged MS system on a 2.0L sometime....

[Brad Roberts]

Oh.. good point PB.

What do you personally think will sell:

With or without spark control ??

I'm not a afraid to say.. this is all money driven. I'm tired of wasting my time for free. I know the parts will become harder to find (OEM) and that people now a days are more comfortable with computers than when I took my first Bosch class back in 88.

Your point about O2 and and knock are well founded.


B

[RD Evans]

Brad..I want to offer an answer to your question of what will sell. A kit that contains the completed MS, a checklist of parts that the purchaser will need to source (stock FI parts), and detailed instructions on how to install the system. I have a 1.8 with a single carb that sucks and really want to replace it with FI. So what kinda of price do you think you could put a "kit" together for and make a fair profit?

[Brad Roberts]

RD,

The plan would be to keep it about the same price as a new dual carb conversion kit from Weber. (750.00$ or so)

A place down the street from me (owned by a Posche guy) said he would professionally solder the boards for me at something like 12$ apiece. His business does this for several major manufacturing companies... so this would "almost" eliminate any solder related failures.

You would actuallty be sold a complete kit with the parts you need. OH.. your in luck. My wife writes Oracle documentation. She said she would do the install procedure and tuning manuals for us if she could have it on her 914.

One more thing.. I have spent several Friday nights at Temple academy drag way. My lawyer lives in Killeen.

B

[mike95125]

B Anders,
I have the 73 ECU that you need, and would be willing to let ya use it if you want.

I am one of the ones looking for a megasquirt solution as I am in the process of planing a 6 cyl abomination. They are working on a spark control system right now, and it seems like it will be awsome. Dont know when it will be done.
I deffinetly want part in the R&D of something . I will probably manufacture my own basterdized copy of a MS kit with local parts, and schematics off of their web site in the not to distant future. Im gonna do it either way so why not pool my knowledge (or lack there of). Just trying to stay in the loop.
.......now where did I put my beer........mmmmm

[Brad Roberts]

Mike,

I have been saving a 3.2 Upper intake for a MS 6cyl conversion on a 3.0.

I will have plenty to share with you. I just located a core 3.0 engine for my 9146 that I plan to use that 3.2 setup on. I figure by the time I get around to the engine rebuild... MS will have the ignition piece done.

Worst case scenerio.. I'll just use one of the complete 3.2's sitting around the shop.

B