944 Q re: relative performance

[Twehttam]

Guys, I'm looking at 944's currently and - as I haven't had the chance to drive one yet - wanted some thoughts and advice from those who have. I love pcars and will acquire a 911 down the line, but would like to own a 944 now - I've always loved their style (a product of the 80s, I guess).

Anyway, I'm currently on my 2nd Ford SVT Focus and love the car (will *not* be selling it). What I'd like is a 944 that can meet or exceed the performance and driving characteristics of my SVT Focus.

The Focus, for those who don't know, weighs in at 2750lbs and peaks at 170hp @7000rpm (7800 redline). Torque is 145lb-ft @5500 all from a 2.0L 4 banger. Braking is excellent with 11.8" discs up front and 11" in the rear. Performance figures are:

0-60 in 7.3s, 1/4-mi in 15.7s @88.4mph, 60-0 braking in 119', the 200' skidpad at .86g and the 490' slalom at 47.3mph (current gen 911 Carrera does it at 47.5mph).

I know the 944 is 20 years older, but which model will meet or beat my little SVT Focus?

'83-'86: 2.5L, 150hp @5500, torque rating?, ~2650lbs
'87-'88: 2.5L, 158hp @5900, tq?, ~2650lbs
'89: 2.7L, 162hp @5800, tq?, ~2650lbs

Will any of these three reach my goals or is the turbo model really where I need to be (although cost would, most likely, be an issue)?

Re: budget, I'm thinking $6K tops.

Any help is appreciated!
-Matt

[natey]

Disclaimer: I've only driven the focus SVT once, before I bought my first 944.

I think any of the N/A 944s will about meet the performance of your SVT, engine-wise. HP is very close, and I thought the 944 had nice torque. The 944 doesn't rev quite so high, redline is at 6400(or so?). Factory said 944 0-60 was in the low 8's, but the factory may have actually under-estimated. At least one car magazine tested it at ~7.5. If you like to rev, you may consider a 944S (16 valve 2.5L). It's more maintainence, but it's got an extra 30HP at the top end (and a bit less at the bottom).

Where I think you'll see the biggest difference is in the handling. What I really remember about the SVT was that it felt tall, and "tippy" (just my opinion). The 944 is relatively low, and has less body roll. Factory rated the 944 at .9g on the skidpad, and that was with tire technology from ~1982. 50/50 balance is nice too. I think you'll like the cornering in the 944. Also, the 944 is RWD, so no torque steer.

Can't comment on the brakes, I don't remember either very well...I've been completely spoiled by the brakes in the turbo S, which could stop a freight train.

If you like the performance of the SVT, I think a turbo is more than you need. Find a good N/A and try it. FYI, the engine should rev smoothly, probably on par with the focus. If the 944 is rough, or it vibrates and shakes a lot, it's probably not a good example of the model.

[Techno Duck]

I would say if you really want the full experience, look around for an S2. Though most are near or past 15 years old, they have incredible brakes and generous low end grunt. I had the pleasure of driving a nicely sorted one and it made me want to sell my 944 and get a turbo or S2! You however may not like the turbo lag on the 944 Turbo considering you are comparing it to a n/a car. Once the turbo hits boost though, all bets are off...you will be addicted. However with a budget of $6k that basically puts you in the 8v or possibly S model 944 if you can find one. Personally if you can swing the extra 1.5-2,000 you get yourself into 944 Turbo and S2 territory.

The 944 Turbo and S2 price range (for a running, driving car) i would say starts at about $5500 for a car that needs mechanical work (leaks oil, no maitenence records) and is rough cosmetically. The $7-9k range is what i would expect to pay for a reasonable mileage, well sorted car in good cosmetic shape. Anything past the $9500 range are likely modified cars, or cars with lower mileage.

Does your $6k budget include maitenence? You will likely spend in the ballpark of $1500 for a car with no recent maitenence. You will need to replace timing belt, waterpump, rollers...etc as they are critical parts which will cause some serious damage if they are old, worn and break. If $6k includes your maitenence budget, i would look around for a regular 8-valve N/A 944. Im not sure about how pricing goes in your area, but for around $4000-5000 you can probably find a pretty reasonable mileage good condition 944. That number may be more or less depending on your area.

I think the biggest problem most will have with a 8V N/A 944 is constantly wishing for more power. Going through the twisties in a 944 is alot of fun, reasonable power and very easy to drive. The 944 Turbo is a bit more of a choore to drive having to constantly stay in the boost. Thats not to say you also need to be careful knowing when you hit boost...halfway though the apex of a turn and hitting boost may have bad consequences! The power available from the Turbo is great on the open road though. The S and S2 are good compromises...but really nothing beats the power you can achieve with the turbo!

[Twehttam]

Thanks, guys - all of that info helps a lot. $6K is not including maintenance, and I may be able to bump it up a bit. We'll see. Time to do more research...

[Wolf1]

I would recommend starting with a stock turbo model.

Then bring all the maintenance items up to spec and drive the car for awhile.

If later you decide you want more power, its easy to accomplish.

If you buy any form of NA you will still have maintenance to perform. And a year later when you want more power, its just not going to excite you anymore. And your options for increasing the power of an NA a noticeable amount are very expensive and very un-rewarding.

Just my .02. Many will disagree upfront, but "most" all NA owners eventually dream about having more power.

Save yourself some time and agony and just start with the turbo.

[Twehttam]

Wolf/Techno, I think you guys are probably right in looking above the 944 N/A. After more thought I just don't think I'll be quite satisfied with that performance (not that it's bad, just that it will leave me wanting more).

I am going to target the '87-'88 944S (188hp), '89-'91 944S2 (208hp) or the '86-'89 944 Turbo (217hp).

My first SVT Focus was supercharged (~240hp) and I think one of those three is probably a better idea. Guess I should go out and drive 'em now!

Out of the three, I assume the Turbo is the one with the highest power potential?

[Wolf1]

Originally posted by Twehttam

Out of the three, I assume the Turbo is the one with the highest power potential?

Correct. The turbo is easily capable of 300+ rwhp.

[projektporsche1]

I have an S2. started out with a early 85 NA I thought the na was fast when i first got it..... It was super fun....and handled great........ I still have it as a daily driver that i drive back and forth to work in........ THen I started readin about the turbos.... I liked them alot liked the look......but didnt like all the extra maintenece of the turbo..... I bought an s2 with out even driveing it...... THe S2 Makes the 85 feel like a lil old toyota pickup in every department....... THe S2 has the trubo brakes nose everything except the turbo...... I like the S2 so much more becuase It accels......then hits 4,000 RPM and then IT comes to life....all crazy craps break loose..........get pushed back in the seat.........feels like going down a hill real fast and your stomach comes up in your throat....... I have yet to ride in a turbo.... MY next car is going to be a mid 90's 968.

[Techno Duck]

I got a chance to drive an S2 for the first time two weeks ago. I was truely impressed by the car as well. It was basically two or three steps up from my 944 in almost every aspect. It was amazing seeing the needle on the same familar tach rising up so much faster as i went through the gears. Getting back into my 944 after the ride was a little tough...it was like "Damn, what happened!". The brakes are great on that car also. Now the brakes on the regular 944 are more than suitable for the car...but those turbo brakes grabbed so hard i almost got whiplash when i was testing to see the bite (~40mph on a long stretch and hit the brakes hard).

The biggest dilemma i am having right now is deciding the future of my 944. I just bought it in Nov...love it to death. Its well sorted and in good shape. I am considering starting to put some suspension modifications in towards the end of the year when the auto-x season ends. I am questioning if i should keep this car and put the money in or save up and buy a 944 Turbo or S2. As of right now everything i have put onto my 944 is removable and can be carried over...its just hard to decide whether i should take the plunge into the higher powered models or start doing a few more indepth modifications.

With my current financial situation (poor college kid) i wouldnt be able to sell this and buy another car for atleast another year or so (im lucky that my father would help by loaning me some money). The suspension is so very tempting to tune as it can be done piece by piece over time. I would most defenetley go for a Turbo car...so many more options for power upgrades!

Ideally i will keep this car for another year or two, drive the snot out of it (in a good way) and then pickup hopefully a nice white 944 Turbo .

[Techno Duck]

Double post....

[DannoXYZ]

"Thanks, guys - all of that info helps a lot. $6K is not including maintenance, and I may be able to bump it up a bit. We'll see. Time to do more research... "

Yeah, for about $5-7K you can pick up a decent '86 944 Turbo (the most common model-year, more than all the rest combined). Add in $1-2k in misc. maintenance to ensure it's up to spec. and you're set! In stock trim, it'll do:

0-60: 6.1s
1/4-mile: 14.2-14.4s @ 91mph
60-0: 123ft
skidpad: 0.88-0.91
most importantly.. 155mph top-speed


With just a basic $300 chip-kit upgrade, you're looking at TurboS performance:

0-60: 5.5s
1/4-mile: 13.6-13.9s @ 97-103mph
top-speed: 162-165mph


Add another $975 for a MAP/MAF upgrade and you're in supercar territory:

0-60: 4.7-5.1s
1/4-mile: 13.2-13.5s @ 101-107mph
top-speed: 169-175mph

There's a reason the '87+ cars came with a higher 180mph speedo compared to the 160mph one in the '86 cars... too many warrantee repairs to fix bent speedo needles..

[Mark944na86]

Personally, I'd strike the S off your list -- it's far closer to the standard NAs than to the S2s or Turbos in terms of performance. (It's one of the few Porsche models that didn't live up to the "S" badge, IMHO.)

-Mark

[bluebullet]

im trying to pick up an 87 (with all maintenance done at time of sale) for 5k. Its N/A but I like their simplicity as a daily driver. For me, I dont think a turbo would last under its everyday use, and it would be in the shop too much.


I always thought about building a high compression 8V. 12:1 and a standalone.

[auh]

Actually, the 951s I think are just of good of dialy drivers as an NA. If the maintance is done on time, I would think they would outlast a NA actually

[DannoXYZ]

Yeah, as for maintenance differences, there's very little that's different between a Turbo and an NA. The Turbo hardly ever needs any maintenance on its turbo parts. The maintenance that's often done is exactly the same as on an NA:

- clutch $1000+
- ball-joints $60 on early, $500+ on later cars
- wheel-bearings $100 front $250 rear
- water-pump $300
- belts $400
- CV-joints $200
- brake rotors & pads $250-400

I had 5 years of trouble-free daily driving sprinkled with full-bore track-racing about once a month. The parts that needed maintenance are the same for both cars:

- tyres
- brakes
- fluids (brake, oil, tranny, coolant)
- clutch

The Turbo only costs $2-3k extra over an NA. Those who are considering an NA over a Turbo will spend the same on maintenance for a slower, less fun to drive car and pretty soon you'll see them asking one of two questions:

"How to get more power out of NA motor?" or
"Can I turbocharge my NA?"

After futile efforts and spending $5k+ on NA upgrades, you invariably see them sell the NA and buy a Turbo...

(no one EVER sells a Turbo and buys an NA...)

[bluebullet]

Well a turbo around here can get me into trouble quite quickly. I havent fully explored the limits of an NA yet, so once I get it down and I can save a little more money in the bank, then I can look at a turbo. Coming from working on turbo cars for a living, I can never deal with stock performance..Im always itching to upgrade, and thats whats going to bite me hard. Im going to drop 3 grand in an instant for a bigger turbo and intercooler and all that fancy stuff.