resurrecting early 85, need help

tomc_85.5_944 · 05-30-2005, 06:03 AM

Patrick-87-944 and I picked up an early 85 with a parts car this weekend, in the hopes of saving another one from the crusher. PO, who turned out to be an idiot, told us that all that was wrong with it was the starter. For the price, OK, no problem, more could be wrong and we'd still be OK. Get her home, oil looks good, coolant is way low. Filled up the tank, good to go. Switch out starters, and she fires right up. Been sitting a few months, so it takes a few minutes for the lifters to quiet down, but otherwise, things are looking up. So we let her run in the garage for 10-15 minutes, bleeding the coolant, and then decide to take her around the block. 3/4 of the way (about a mile) at idle, the oil pressure light comes on, (at idle only, rev it and its fine) and she is running hot (but the ! light never came on). Limp her home and shut her down, as it was about 1am. Oil level is a little high, Coolant was gone. Filled back up, let cool down, started, and much white smoke from tailpipe. The next morning, couldn't get her to start so we start troubleshooting....(starting to think headgasket)

What we know:
spark at all 4.
pulled the injectors, all four are spraying
air filter was filthy, removed, so getting air
appears timed correctly, as OT mark and cam tower mark lined up
We did a compression test, and bad news. 1-4, 150, 110, 90, 120

Noticed when we had the plugs out and were turning the motor over, we were getting spray out the 2 and 3 plugs but nothing out the 1 and 4. We assumed it was gas, but now that I think about it, could the spray have been coolant?

Would a blown headgasket keep it from running like that, or is there something else we need to look at before pulling the head? Neither of us have ever done a headgasket before, so what other things do you look for when doing it, and how easy is it to tell where it has failed?

earlr85944 · 05-30-2005, 07:00 AM

im no expert so take this with a grain of salt..
whats the mileage?
I would be a little leary about putting too much money into that motor as it sounds as if had 1 tire in the junk yark. You could replace the head gasket and find that the lower end needs work. And if the motor got hot what the sense in replacing the gasket without machining or replacing the head? If you have the parts to do the job at a low cost fine do it its a very simple procedure on these car(plenty of room to work on and the quality materials make for easy disassemble even after 20 years! Unless the body is in great shape maybe get a running replacement motor or part it. If you stick with that motor the right thing would be a complete rebuild. Just my 2 cents. Also the PO sounds like a MOFO.

mike944 · 05-31-2005, 08:09 AM

If your oil looks ok (no milk-shake) and you're loosing coolant, with white smoke out the tailpipe, definitely bad head gasket. Your low compression numbers confirm this. Those numbers sound so low, that's probably why it won't run.

The overheating you observed would be due to the bad head gasket / low coolant.

Low oil pressure at idle could be caused several things. Unfortunately, lower-end damage (bearing damage) is one of them. Here's another possibility that i would definitely check before dumping $$$ into this engine: previous owner could have used oil that is way too thin. 5W30, 0W20, or something like that. Thin oil would cause low pressure at idle. Unfortunately, if it was run like that for a significant length of time, it could cause bearing damage. I would pull the dipstick when the engine's cold, and take some oil off the dipstick, and compare the "thickness" with some known proper grade oil, and see if it's significantly different. if it is, you've likely found the cause of low oil pressure. If the oil thickness is normal, you've got bigger problems.

You'll definitely need to get the head surfaced. When you get it apart, you'll probably see corrosion "tracks" leading from the combustion chambers to the water jackets. That's where all your compression is going. A new head gasket needs flat surfaces to seal against. "surfacing" the head should be about $50-$75 at an automotive machine shop. Hopefully your block doesn't need surfacing, that would require complete dissasembly and removal of the engine.

I would 1. check the oil thickness. 2. pop the head off, and evaluate the situation. See how bad everything is before spending any money.

Patrick-87-944 · 05-31-2005, 09:20 AM

Turned the motor over and looked at the spray coming from the #2 & #3 cyl. it is coolant.. It is at least a headgasket...I will check the oil when I get home.

Ferrara_racing · 05-31-2005, 09:28 AM

Another guy's two cents you don't need...But..

If you are confident in you're abilities to do a head gasket job, then I'd go for it. Gasket sets aren't crazy money. You already own it now, might as well play Las Vegas and toss some effort and a small amount of investment. Just my thoughts, it really depends on how you feel about the car and it's overall condition.

pokey · 06-01-2005, 01:03 PM

To do the headgasket isn't that bad. Expect to lay out about $200 for all the gaskets and headwork. I would do the front end seals and timing and balance belts, while you are at it. Cheap insurance.

tomc_85.5_944 · 06-02-2005, 05:32 AM

Thanks all, Everyone's $0.02 is what this place is great for. I still hold true to my internet mantra, which is "if you hear it once, the guy may be full of BS, hear it twice, he may have convinced a friend, hear it 3 times, and there might be some truth in it" .....

We will be attempting the job, once Patrick gets the head off and makes sure that there are no scored cylinders. He also said that the oil was very thin compared to 10w30, so maybe that is the oil pressure problem as well.

mike944 · 06-02-2005, 06:49 AM

if the oil was thin compared to 10w-30, there's your oil problem, because depending on temperature, you should be running 20W50.

Hopefully there's no bearing damage from running thin oil.

Patrick-87-944 · 06-03-2005, 06:11 AM

4.5 hours and only 3 beers and the head is now off the motor ...the 2 center cylinders were 1/2 full of coolant...the gasket was very, very, very bad. I parted an '83 and the head gasket looked new compared to this one. What would cause so much degradation to the gasket that it would be literally disintegrating?

Also I broke the small 6 mm Allen head bolts at the front of the cylinder head. (step 10 on Clark’s procedure) I think that I can get it out and I may have a replacement, but what a pain in the a$$.

pokey · 06-03-2005, 09:10 AM

Loose studs, nuts?

mike944 · 02:17 PM

Badly degraded head gaskets are often caused by bad coolant. If it hasn't been changed since '85, that'll do it. it looses it's anti-corrosion properties, and starts to degrade everything it comes in contact with. You should shine a flashlight down into the radiator. That might be bad as well. Check the water pump too.

(loose head studs/nuts are also a good possibility, although they generally don't loosen on their own, somebody could have botched a prior head gasket job)

How is the rest of the car? Sounds like this car was severely abused. You might want to take a hard look at EVERYTHING that will need replacing to resurect this car. Unless you have become emotionally attached to this car, you might be in for more than you bargained for..........

Patrick-87-944 · 06-03-2005, 02:37 PM

The stud nuts were tight. I did not know (bad) coolant was that harmfull to the gaskets...I may want to check the oil cooler gasket, but the oil has no water in it.
As for the rest of the car after cleaning the interior shows the typical sore spots, but nothing major. The exterior will have to be re-sprayed, but that was a given after I saw the car.

pokey · 06-03-2005, 03:52 PM

It could've gotten hot and warped the head.

mike944 · 11:53 AM

As to the condition, i was thinking mechanical condition, not cosmetic condition. are the shocks ok? suspension bushings? steering rack? tires? Motor mounts? Clutch? Rotors? Pads? Calipers? If the brake fluid was changed just as frequently as the coolant was changed, you calipers are likely gummed up, and/or frozen, they might need rebuilding.

Unfortunately, this car has all the telltale signs of a money pit. But that's just my opinion. I'm all for rescuing 944's from the junkyard, but i also know how expensive they can be if they've been neglected for many years.

As i re-read your first post, you did say it came with a parts car, so chances are you can find at least 1 good part of everything. You might not be that bad after all.

Patrick-87-944 · 06-05-2005, 05:46 AM

From the very short test drive we took everything feels/looks ok...I am going to spend some time on it to day and figure out what the deal is with some of the other parts.