Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > Porsche 924/944/968 Technical Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
armandodiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,467
Garage
difference between an 83 and 87 engine

I'm looking at an 83 engine for my 87 track car. You can read my drama in another post. I'm need to know the difference between the 2 engines. I know the 87 has a different camshaft (which is why it has 8hp more). I also know the obvious self tensioner. Aside from that is there any other differences? I might have heard the oil gallies are routed differently for better oiling. Does any know? Thanks
__________________
Armando Diaz
85 911 Carrera - Track car
01 996 Carrera - For Sale http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=327823&highlight=996
87 944na - Old Daily Driver, now 944 CUP
03 Chevy Avalanche- Support Vehicle
70 Olds 442 W30 Conv- Gone but not forgotten
http://www.diazracing.com
adiaz@diazracing.com
Old 06-11-2007, 10:19 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Burlington, NC
Posts: 227
I know first hand that the balance shafts are different... I'm sure there are a few more items...

JM
Old 06-11-2007, 10:30 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
armandodiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,467
Garage
Not too worried about those, I may even delete them (at least the belt).

I'm wondering is it possible to retro-fit a spring tensioner on the 83? I don't feel like buying a $500 guage.
__________________
Armando Diaz
85 911 Carrera - Track car
01 996 Carrera - For Sale http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=327823&highlight=996
87 944na - Old Daily Driver, now 944 CUP
03 Chevy Avalanche- Support Vehicle
70 Olds 442 W30 Conv- Gone but not forgotten
http://www.diazracing.com
adiaz@diazracing.com
Old 06-11-2007, 10:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 1,629
Send a message via AIM to Icey1174
Sid, Blown944 knows a lot about this stuff. He has an 83 and an 87 944. He'll prob answer.

From what I know the pistons in the 83 are forged and the pistons in the 87 are cast. I think the 83 uses the same pistons as the turbo. That's a big difference if you are looking to add some serious horse power to it. A couple things are found in different places. The fuel damper is located in the rear of the fuel rail with the fuel pressure regulator. The 87 has the damper in the front of the fuel rail.

Do you have the PET for these different model years? You can compare parts numbers and look at some basic diagrams if you do. If you don't have them I could Email them to you.
__________________
John
'87 944 N/A (first Porsche)
'95 E-350 Diesel
'03 S-Type Jag 3.0
'03 Taurus SES
'06 Eddie Bauer Explorer

RIP SoCal
Old 06-11-2007, 10:37 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
armandodiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,467
Garage
I have PET thanks.

BTW: Let me say it, before everyone jumps down your throat, I think you ment to say connecting rods instead of pistons
__________________
Armando Diaz
85 911 Carrera - Track car
01 996 Carrera - For Sale http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=327823&highlight=996
87 944na - Old Daily Driver, now 944 CUP
03 Chevy Avalanche- Support Vehicle
70 Olds 442 W30 Conv- Gone but not forgotten
http://www.diazracing.com
adiaz@diazracing.com
Old 06-11-2007, 10:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Certified Rennwerker
 
924Sman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,902
Send a message via MSN to 924Sman
Difference is in the CR 9.5:1 on the early USA engine M44/02...04. Late is 9.7:1...This is established by the 4 degrees before BDC and 1 degree after BDC change on the late cam M44/05 to 12 engine models. Intake never changed on the cam. Yes a bit of upgrade to the oil pan was done on the late by means of a cross drill port or baffle change.

Early Euro engine has 10.6:1 and flat topped pistons, all others have valve slots.

Whether or not it has a spring tensioner you still need to use a gauge to check the correct tension, putting a ST on will not save you any money. Many stick or convert to the eccentric tensioner because it is EZ to manipulate and less weight. as far as retro fitting one on I do think it is possible but I am lost on one point..not certain if the block needs drilled and tapped to mount the ST to the block.?
Dal
__________________
PCA " I've been everywhere, done everything......just can't remember any of it!"

Last edited by 924Sman; 06-11-2007 at 11:06 AM..
Old 06-11-2007, 11:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
armandodiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,467
Garage
Thanks Sman. So if I were to do an engine swap I should keep the old cam tower, oil pan and fuel rail. Any word on the spring tensioner? Is it possible to retro fit it on to the 83?

Also, any ideas on making the bearings more reliable?
__________________
Armando Diaz
85 911 Carrera - Track car
01 996 Carrera - For Sale http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=327823&highlight=996
87 944na - Old Daily Driver, now 944 CUP
03 Chevy Avalanche- Support Vehicle
70 Olds 442 W30 Conv- Gone but not forgotten
http://www.diazracing.com
adiaz@diazracing.com
Old 06-11-2007, 11:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Certified Rennwerker
 
924Sman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,902
Send a message via MSN to 924Sman
Crank scrapers are said to work well. See Paragon for this item. If only looking at the 83 why not just get a late engine and be done with it? One thing is certain what ever PAG did to each model year from 83 to 88 is for the better so an early engine is going to lack the updating! Each year they made the engine just a TAD better than the previous, minimal but better none the less.

Dal
__________________
PCA " I've been everywhere, done everything......just can't remember any of it!"
Old 06-11-2007, 11:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
armandodiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,467
Garage
I'd like to but I am confined to what, where and price. So far 87 engines are going for $600 while 83 are going for $300 locally.
__________________
Armando Diaz
85 911 Carrera - Track car
01 996 Carrera - For Sale http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=327823&highlight=996
87 944na - Old Daily Driver, now 944 CUP
03 Chevy Avalanche- Support Vehicle
70 Olds 442 W30 Conv- Gone but not forgotten
http://www.diazracing.com
adiaz@diazracing.com
Old 06-11-2007, 11:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Certified Rennwerker
 
924Sman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,902
Send a message via MSN to 924Sman
I understand but I feel you can snag a late one for close to the price range if you do enough leg work....maybe, never know! In addition to the 83 you will spend a bit more than the original cost to get it up to late spec. Now whether or not that is an additional 300, is a enigma.

You will also have 4 more years of ring wear and bore taper.
Dal
__________________
PCA " I've been everywhere, done everything......just can't remember any of it!"
Old 06-11-2007, 11:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: long Island NY
Posts: 117
Do you run PS now or manual rack. I believe I heard early early 83's had shorter cranks that will not support the PS belt on the crank. Could be BS but figured I would throw it out there...
__________________
Early 85 944
Factory Cold Air Intake
Radial Tires
Old 06-11-2007, 12:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Eldorado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,553
i've got an 83 with factory power steering.
__________________
Kyle

2008 Mini Cooper // '83 Porsche 944 // '01 Mazda Protege [sold] //
"Never break more than you fix!" - SoCal Driver
Old 06-11-2007, 12:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
armandodiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,467
Garage
All cranks except 16V are the same.
__________________
Armando Diaz
85 911 Carrera - Track car
01 996 Carrera - For Sale http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=327823&highlight=996
87 944na - Old Daily Driver, now 944 CUP
03 Chevy Avalanche- Support Vehicle
70 Olds 442 W30 Conv- Gone but not forgotten
http://www.diazracing.com
adiaz@diazracing.com
Old 06-11-2007, 01:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
ERAU944's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hobe Sound, FL
Posts: 1,197
Garage
Send a message via AIM to ERAU944
my father swapped out an '84 motor into his '85.5. i realize there are more differences between the '87 and '83 than the '85.5 and '83, but the only real issue he had was putting the coolant sensor into the head. he simply had to drill a bit into the head and tap it to receive the sensor, it all worked out fine. the connecting rods are forged, as stated above, and you're correct the camshaft is different (along with computer/afm). the compression ratio was the same in the US for '83-'87, but horsepower varied due to the camshaft and computer/timing changes. the CR bump was in '88, and displacement change in '89. as far as the power steering goes, you can change the mount on the engine to accept the PS, as well as adding the pulley to the crankshaft for the belt. correct also on the fuel rail issue, you'll need to retain the old fuel rail, the early is nowhere near compatible with the late.
__________________
Mike - Flight Instructor, A&P Mechanic, Fuel Injector Service Specialist
'88 951S - zermatt silber/black - staying stock. purchased in 11-2006
'84 944 - gemini grau/tan+brown - lightly modified. purchased in 11-2001
'99 VW Cabrio - green/tan - daily beater
'83 944 - zermatt silber/black - Dad's 40k mile time capsule. purchased in 09-1998 @ 18k
Old 06-11-2007, 07:16 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
SoCal Driver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Costa Mesa
Posts: 8,587
Garage
As the fuel lines come into the engine compartment in a different area than the early engine, the fuel rails are different in their fuel line attachment locations. So use the fuel rail, AFS, DME, and idle control valve that is now in the car. The injectors are close to the same and the DME will adjust the difference using the O2 info.

As noted you will have to drill and tap into the coolant jacket to use the later temp gauge sender. The DME temp sender is the same.

Also the oil filler/breather has different size ports on it. Have to use the one on the engine.

Swap out the cams for more horse power. Besides the rods the pistons are beefier too. Some will cut them down for use in turbos.
__________________
Hugh - So Cal 83 944 Driver Person
NOT a 'real' Porsche -- Its Better!!!!
When was the last time you changed your timing and balance belts and/or cam chain and tensioner?
New Users please add your car's year and model to your signature line!
Never break more than you fix!
Old 06-11-2007, 07:44 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 673
Agree with all stated above

However it is my understanding (and was a visual) that the pistons in the very early models are forged vs cast in the later cars.

They can use a PS pulley

Fuel lines and even the whole head assy would prolly be best retained from the later engine.
__________________
Sid
splitting my obsessions with a crow bar.
87 DD Black 951 Holset HX40-35 custom garrett turbine, Ford MAF, Rogue tuned,SLM stroker, best ET 11.4..best mph 127
Old 06-11-2007, 10:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
SoCal Driver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Costa Mesa
Posts: 8,587
Garage
Think the power steering boss is part of the oil pump or balance shaft cover/casting.

__________________
Hugh - So Cal 83 944 Driver Person
NOT a 'real' Porsche -- Its Better!!!!
When was the last time you changed your timing and balance belts and/or cam chain and tensioner?
New Users please add your car's year and model to your signature line!
Never break more than you fix!
Old 06-12-2007, 05:59 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
armandodiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,467
Garage
I was also told the oil gallies in the block are different on the later engines. There by producnig better oiling. Has anyone else heard of this?
__________________
Armando Diaz
85 911 Carrera - Track car
01 996 Carrera - For Sale http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=327823&highlight=996
87 944na - Old Daily Driver, now 944 CUP
03 Chevy Avalanche- Support Vehicle
70 Olds 442 W30 Conv- Gone but not forgotten
http://www.diazracing.com
adiaz@diazracing.com
Old 06-12-2007, 06:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
SoCal Driver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Costa Mesa
Posts: 8,587
Garage
If you need an engine yesterday one takes what one finds. If you are looking to build a race engine the pistons and rods from the early engines are preferred.
__________________
Hugh - So Cal 83 944 Driver Person
NOT a 'real' Porsche -- Its Better!!!!
When was the last time you changed your timing and balance belts and/or cam chain and tensioner?
New Users please add your car's year and model to your signature line!
Never break more than you fix!
Old 06-12-2007, 06:19 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:58 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.