there are a few things to think about when talking about chips:


first, you cannot compare dyno runs from one car on one day to another car on another day - people are constantly trying to do that, and there are just way too many variables to make it accurate - transaxle temp alone can make for a 10hp difference in a run

second, on a normally aspirated engine, gains are MUCH smaller than on a turbo - it is generally a function of displacement and compression - on a 944 2.5, i would expect somewhere around 8hp at peak

there could be fuel requirement issues as a result - chips manipulate timing and fuel to get power - you may need to increase the octane of the fuel you are running - there may also be a potential knocking issue if you don't have knock sensors and the ability to pull back the timing

the big thing, and the hardest for most people to get their head around, is that it is NOT about the numbers as much as it is about the room under the curve - the overall increase only needs to be 4-5hp to really feel the difference in driving the car - it will be very noticeable in throttle response - you won't feel it so much in the seat of the pants, but there is a noticeable sense of urgency - you'll see it in lap times too, as well as 0-60 times and such

Well said, I agree

Hummm... . I am underwhelmed. Where are the huge gains? biggest hp gain is about 5.5 at about 5300 rpm. Lets see .. . Some quick math and that looks to be about a gain of less then 5% (4.5% to be exact). The torque seems to be seeing about the same percentage gains as well at same RPM. This is virtually undetectable to the human a$$. What you are feeling is the increase in the timing. It makes the throttle feel more responsive and in turn makes the car feel like it has significantly more power. A light weight flywheel will also give this illusion as well but with the difference being that the hp that was used to spin up the heavier flywheel is transmitted to the wheels thus you will see a gain at the rear wheel but nothing at the crank..

I say that it is a wast of $$$. I have a weltmeister chip that I had in my car for a while and it was nice but the claims of 16-18 additional hp were a complete farce. The additional RPM is not really of any use on the street. In addition to not needing the additional RPM (HP and Torque drops of fast up there) I would not recommend using it with any regularity if you dont have a balanced rotating assembly. How much added HP and Torque does Wilks claim? By looking at the dyno sheet above I would say the Wilks is no better (or worse) than the weltmeister chip. Both increase the timing and play with the fuel maps and both will give you a little more HP and Torque but it is so little that driver skill can easly overcome the small gains the chips give you. Oh-ya and then there is the need for high-test fuel. In my book I would take the $200 and spend it on a good tuneup that included getting your injectors cleaned and blueprinted. I bet in most 944's a good tune up and an injector cleaning will net you at least %5.

Sorry to be the wet blanket but I just dont see it. Oh-ya I got my weltmeister chip off eBay for less than $50. (I think I paid $25 but I can not remember) So if you can get the Wilks chip for $25-$50 than sure go for it but at $200 I would pass. With a $$$/HP ratio of about $44 per HP it is just not a good deal in my book.

I have to take issue with you on this. If a car feels faster is it faster? No I think not. 4-5HP is not detectable. Again it is only the timing advance that you feel. This is why we dyno tune all our race cars after every motor rebuild and mark the timing for that particular motor combination on the motor and in the log book. What we do it at the end of tuning session we then take the timing and slowly increases it for each pull (Usually by one degree) until the HP and torque start to fall off. We then move it back to the last pull and test it to verify that it is the sweet spot. The interesting thing is that in almost all cases the car actually feels slower (because it is smoother) but the lap times will tell you otherwise. This gets back to my original statement that what feels fast is not necessarily fast and why the seat of the pants dyno can absolutely not be counted on to give you accurate readings. As a crew chief and engine builder I have seen this so many times. I will set a race car up and then do a couple of pulls with it down the road by our shop. But 99.9 percent of the time I have put to much timing in it. Where it really counts is on the track and again the proof is that with the dyno tuned car we are consistently faster.

I guess the bottom line is that if the car feels faster, and after all that is what most people are wanting, It really does not matter if it really is. In fact I bet if some one sold a chip that made cars feel slower but were faster on the strip/track they would not sell.

Edit:
I guess what I am trying to say is that I have driven cars with a "sense of urgency" that were slow as dirt. Fun to drive? Hell yes! But still slow. Then there are the cars that are smooth as silk almost boring. There is virtually no perceivable kick in the but when you get on the go peddle. These cares are the ones that have more hp and will consistently click off the faster times. This is why I say that chipping a 944 (with any chip) is really not worth it. Invest in better tires, brake pads, and even a tuneup as noted in my last post. The chip in an NA should be your last modification if you are looking for speed. If you are looking to make you car more fun to drive then a chip is a option that will make you smile.

Yeah, if you want it to feel faster, get (or mod) the throttle response cam. It really crisps up the low end response, which does make the car "feel" stronger without adding a single horsepower.

i'm not suggesting that a chip is going the be the end all beat all of hp increases

for the record, not all chips do their job with timing - actually the good ones do it mostly with fuel - you can't really monkey around with timing much on a really high compression engine, before you run into trouble, so those benefits are very limited - however, there is usually a LOT of room to play with in the area of porsche fuel maps

personally i can defintitely feel 5hp changes, but i have been setting up cars for 30 years - it's a subtle change, but it's there - 10 is usually the benchmark tell-tale - however, i agree that most people cannot feel the small increases - in fact i said that above - the sense of urgency i spoke about is really the widening of the torque band that accompanies good chips - this allows the engine to rev better through the sweet spot, thereby accelerating faster - it's more of an improved driveability thing than raw power

while i would agree that tuning of a chip is more "critical" on a race car, where chips count most is NOT on the track - where they make the most difference is in the daily driver street car - unlike a race car, top end hp is useless in a street car - it's the midrange and low end that are looked for in a street car - the midrange improvement of a good chip is a VERY readily seen difference - it can be easily seen in 30-70 times

i'm not making any recommendations of any particular chip for the 944, nor am i suggesting that anybody run out and buy one - i have not played with them yet - i have played wiht the ones for the 968, and have tested them all side by side, with countless hours at the dyno and on the road comparing them - there are definitely bad ones, good ones, and great ones - most of them are VERY noticeable in the way they improve everything from 2-5k

all that being said, i agree that there are a lot more things you can do that will show larger benefits - besides tightening up the loose nut behind the wheel, dropping weight out of the car is the first one - i dropped 240lbs from my 968 - that's a 7% change or the equivalent of 16.8hp in a stock cab, and about 20 in mine - add to that the fact that some of it was on the wheels and some at the flywheel, and you see a marked improvement - i dropped nearly a full second off my 0-60 times - the chip wasn't all of it by any means, but it was a part, and contributed to how effectively other mods worked as well

as for where to spend money for the most improvement, i will always go with "seat time"

I dont think anyone ever said that a Chip would make BIG power, But it does make a difference and the dyno charts show that. They also show the difference in the torque curve.
as flash said "the big thing, and the hardest for most people to get their head around, is that it is NOT about the numbers as much as it is about the room under the curve - the overall increase only needs to be 4-5hp to really feel the difference in driving the car - it will be very noticeable in throttle response - you won't feel it so much in the seat of the pants, but there is a noticeable sense of urgency - you'll see it in lap times too, as well as 0-60 times and such"

Not everyone can get their 944 on a dyno and custom tune their maps. Yes Im sure their are other things someone could spend their money on to go faster(brakes,Tires ect...) Put thats not the what we where talking about. He wanted to know how do build a little more power and make the car fun to drive. I agree that the chip would be the first thing to change to fix that.

fast924S,

This post is what got me going. I think that what is being said in this post is .. . . How can I say it nicely.... . A tad over stated??? The dyno sheets that were posted proved that there is no incredible performance boost. I also take issue with the statement that any thing other than a Wilkes chip is wasting your money.

What others here said are all good valid points. This post in particular made my BS meter peg.

LOL, Ok that post may be a tab too much and I could see how it can be takin the wrong way. I think it would be killer if we could do and shot out for the 944 NA chips, Bolth with dyno pulls and driving impresions.

For a simple chip mod I do think wilks makes a difference. IS it a 15hp difference NO, Does it make it more fun, YES, I recommend wilks chip due to the fact that wilk is a good guy and will help/explain/ answere e-mails if you need him, Plus his chip meets everything I wanted a chip to be. I cant say that about other chips. My old VW had a welts chip in it and I didnt notice a difference, I also had Jet redo my trucks ecu, I also didnt notice a difference. I did install the WILK chip in my 924S and did notice a difference

Dean924s,
I am very sorry that my post......How can I say it nicely......Got your panties in a bundle. I see you still haven't got over MY OPINION, that i felt an "incredible performance boost". I am extremely sorry that you feel that MY OPINION is overstated, but maybe you should give your chip a rest and buy a Wilks chip ,you'll be driving your 924S so much you wont have time to write such lengthy posts and for a person who "doesn't have the time" to read the past posts of the Wilks chip, those are some lengthy posts. But once again, that's just MY OPINION

Naaaaa It was a good exercise in the art of the debate. Mental gymnastics are fun. And for the record I don't ware panties it is either boxers of briefs. (depends on if it is wash day or not):D

I think I said that I did take the other chip out of my car? No But to clarify after having it in my car for about a year I pulled it as the little actual performance that I did get was not worth the extra $$$$ in fuel for the premium gas. If I could get a Wilks chip for $50 I would be willing to give it a try but I dont think that this is possible.

I drive it every day between 40-300 miles some times more for work and flog it on track when ever time permits. I am not sure that I can drive it any more with out getting my wife jealous. She may think that my car and I are having an affair.

I can type over 150 words a minute if I dont have to worry about being exactly perfect (Spellcheck is my friend) so these are rather short replies. In-fact I have to be careful not to ramble on to long sometimes. I can if you want.

And your opinion is yours but when posting here it is subject to debate. Don't ever assume that just because you say something is your opinion that you will get a "get out of jail free card". It does not work this way. I, like you, am subject to being critiqued, criticized and even ridiculed. Debate of statements like yours helps define or sharpen a topic. It some times gets to the truth or at least exposes two sides of a subject. It is also what generates learning and the propagation of knowledge. It just goes with the territory of a web based community.

As for reading the other posts why? I did not want supposition I want facts and through the input of various others here I think this was done in great detail here as well as a detailed discussion of the illusion of added performance versus actually making a car perform better. I think that this is a very good discussion that will help others in the future when they consider the installation of a chip (any chip) in a NA 944.

I for one would like to thank all those that have carried on this discussion it was a good exercise. The "art of the debate" is something that is so often lost these days. Keeping it civil and basing an argument on facts and then exploring it is a way of learning. This is what makes this board great!

agreed - way too many people get way too wound up by things posted - these boards lack the benefit of vocal inflection - there is no way to really know the tone or state of mind of the writer

not meant as a slam, i see this more with younger people than i do with those of my generation, and i think it's how they are tought to read

i blame our public school system for not teaching people how to read without inserting their own voice and perspective for the writer's, and for not teaching them to read what they themselves write from another perspective than their own - i'm not sure they even offer literature classes anymore, but that's where i learned it, and it was required

i've seen huge fights online, and even people forming opinions about a person, based soley on what they read on one of these chat boards - that's just plain nuts, and shortsighted

these boards are great, but people need to realize that we are all passionate about our cars - in the end though, they are cars, and not anything of real importance - we all need to take a step back and say to ourselves "what were they really trying to say here?" before jumping up and down ranting and raving - if we took the time to reread our own posts, and edit out some of our emotion, we would all benefit from a more relaxed atmostphere, and a better exchange of ideas and information

kum-ba-ya all

^^^ I have to fully agree and I have certainly fell victim to emotion on these boards probably still do from time to time.

Over time, I have learned to try to edit emotion more and more. Luckily I have benefited from this site and others to learn and contribute.

R&P... "ring and pinion?

It goes with out saying that the more HP you add to an NA car the more you run the risk that you will pop the R&P. The more HP you have the more careful you have to be with you drive line. Dropping the clutch is the real killer. Smooth shifts and resisting jack rabbit starts will go a long way to prevent it.

But look at the bright side with some practise a trans can be changed in a little over an hour.

Here's my dyno with Russel Berry's first version NA chip mapping. 1988 944.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1193162091.jpg

I believe his latest chip and MAF system offer greater improvement in the last year.

Yea the R&P (ring and pinion) Are HUGE weak points in the NA's I blew three already on mostly a stock 924S (maf kit/headers/ect) One time it was repaired wrong by a good tranny shop who I had install 4:11 gears, but thats a different story.

Anyway pics of my old tranny and cracked diff.


Top ones have incorrect pinion depth and a cracked carrier housing.spider gear housing
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1193167944.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1193168050.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1193168074.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1193168115.jpg
Cracked carrier housing/spider gear housing

Everything is a balance. When upgrading one component, you certainly need to look at the impact of everything that it affects. It's what I call, holistic problem solving. Once you embark on a higher performance path, higher cost follows. It's hard to improve on a car, that in it's day was an excellent ride - still is.


On an emotional note; emotions are not bad. It's ok to get angry, get anxious, etc. We are all different; we bring allot of opinion to this board as well as fact. It is what you do with that counts; you let anything get to you; it something beyond what someone posts here. We are on this board for many reasons. I joined a year ago because my car got vandalized and I was at a crossroads; sell it or fix it. All of you have helped me one way of another. All of you are proud of your rides and have kept your car alive for your own reasons. The beauty of this board is that we can all share and learn from each other. If all of us were the same; we wouldn't need each other; we would not learn, grow or tolerate.

All of you are ok in my book. I'm off my soapbox.

Dang am i dumb. Yes R&P = ring and pinion.

And THAT, my friends, is why we should keep plenty of microwave popcorn on hand... ;)