engine flush using ATF ?
 

I have done an engine flush on my high mileage Saabs and Volvos. I was wondering if there is any tech info on engine flushes for Porsche 3.0L motor ? Or if it needs to be done at all ? Depending on how the engine is designed, some motors cannot always clean the lifters correctly and they tend to make noise and build up sludge. I have not seen this mention for our motors, but perhaps I have missed it ? The only noise I notice out of my motor is the FI clicking, which is a "nice to have" for a 140,000 mile motor.

Flush= Good Quality Transmission (ATF) fluid in the engine at high revs for about 5 miles and then drain the oil and put clean engine oil back in.

I used seafoam in the oil (85.5 944 n/a) for a few hundred miles before changing it. My objective was to remove sludge and carbon from the rings, valve guides and lifters so they would be better lubed. I think the car had been run with conventional oil before that. After a few hundred miles the oil was very black, so seafoam certainly removed a lot of sludge and did a very good job. There was probably a lot of sludge buildup on the pan and block surfaces that got loosened and circulated around the engine.

I put in Mobile1 -5w-30- after that. Lighter oil is probably better for the lifters, rings and valve guides that have tight clearances and will also give better gas mileage. It is probably not as good for the bearings where higher stress occurs, especially if you race or drive hard. But I don't drive hard and I like the looser feel and better mpg the lighter oil gives to the engine.

The only thing I am not sure about is if there is a lot of sludge loosened up by seafoam, that it could end up in the lifters and make the lifters worse. IF the engine is sludged up bad repeating the seafoam procedure soon say in another 1000 miles might help. The commercial shops may have a way to remove sludge without running the engine.

safest way is more frequent changes w/ quality oil

ive see leaks and even loss of pressure in therwise good running motors attempting to be flushed

I'm with Earl on this one.

But I have read where others have done this. Most lhave reported better success with seafoam though.

My 30 year Porsche Mechanic friend says 1 qt of ATF at idle (no drive) then flush. I've use the engine oil "gunk out" to flush every few oil changes. Works great and keeps your internals cleaner. Also second that sea foam is good stuff.

The last thing I need to do is create a bunch of leaks !

I have known guys to use diesel fuel, but never heard of ATF. :confused: I would recommend not using either! I too have seen many a leak start after an engine flush.

+1 more for sea-foam

Certainly flushing will increase leaks in a 20 yr old car. A drip her and a drip there, but many can be handled by tightening up this and that, or replacing minor items. A major leak such as a main seal or other critical components might occur, but I defer to the porsche experts on this board on the probablility of this happening, and where most likely to occur. In any case you don't want to dump in flush, change oil, and then drive cross country with reckless abandon. Caution is certainly called for, especially for the non-DIY types.

all ATF is, is straight 10 weight oil with deafoaming agents and dye. Not sure why it would be a good flush, but certainly can't hurt.

I once flushed the straight six engine in my dad's 65 Ford pickup with diesel fuel. It had very low oil pressure, pulled the valve cover and it was a mass of black gunk, you couldn't even see the valve springs and all of the oil return holes were plugged. I just needed it to make one last trip, so with nothing to lose, I scraped off as much gunk as i could, replaced the valve cover, put 3 qts diesel and 3 qts motor oil, let it idle a while, drained, repeated, replaced filter and oil.
Several years later we finally retired that truck with probably another 75K on that engine without ever losing oil pressure again.

I'm not saying I recommend that for a Porcshe because, though, unless you too are desperate and have nothing to lose.

i've used wynn's engine treatment, and really liked the results... quieted the lifters up.... and the next oil change, the old oil was dirtier than usual..
but the PO used seafoam in my car and swore by it.

from NotJustPorsche E-Group
 

Oil change procedure

The OverKill Method !

OIL USED: Shell Helix plus (10w-40) - the specs exceed Porsches own requirements.
SUGGESTED: Change it while its hot (after a 10-15 min drive)
PARTS: New nut and washer, 2 x Oil Filters

1> add wyns engine flush and rev at 2000rpm for about 20 mins, then drain oil

Also, disable the ignition and cranking over the engine a few times once its
drained just to help squeeze some more oil out of the system and leave it
draining for at least 30 mins.

2> Fit new Oil filter add 2.5 ltrs of flushing oil and 2.5 ltrs of cheap nasty
supermarket 20w50 and idle for about 20 mins.

3> Drain for an hour ! then re-fill with "Good" Shell oil and second Filter.

4> Then note the Clanking noise !!!

5> The noise should subside once you have driven the car through some varied
conditions (providing the lifters with varying oil pressures and loads) for
30 mins to an hour. Its quite common for this, so
DON'T PANIC... Its another reason why main dealers don't flush, because they
then have to drive the car to re-inflate the lifters.



=======IDLE for #2=================
start her up... while the engine warms up, follow a cycle of letting
it idle for 5 mins, then lifting the engine speed to 2000 rpm for 5 mins..
do not drive the car during this.. keep an eye on the oil pressure, and time
how long it takes for the radiator fan to come on.... after the radiator fan
has turned off, keep cycling the revs as mentioned for just as long as it
took from starting the engine until the fan came on and shut off.



Running in procedure
+++++++++++++++
1 As soon as the engine fires up, bring the RPM to between 2000 and 2500
RPM and hold it there for the next couple of steps.

2 Monitor the engine on a 4 gas analyser and an ignition scope, make
alterations to the fuelling and ignition the whole time its running.

3. run the engine like this for 15 mins

4. Drain the oil, replace with fresh mineral oil

5. take the car out for a 20 to 30 mile journey of varied duty cycle. in
other words a mix of duel carriageway and urban, with minimum idling, and
regular use of acceleration, never exceeding 75% of the maximum engine RPM,
but using full throttle when possible.

6. drain oil and replace with more mineral oil

7. Hand car over to customer for 1500 miles, with the instructions of
never exceeding 75% of the maximum engine RPM

8. change oil for fully synthetic and tell the customer to drive it as
they please.



STUCK NOISY LIFTERS
================

If you have a stuck lifter, a sticky ring, or chronic problems with black
death (oil sludge) there is a very good way to sort it out, which works in
most cases, and has been used on my 944 twice in its long life (220,000
miles on the original engine without a rebuild), once when I first got her
when the lifters were chattering through it not having enough oil changes,
and once about 30,000 miles ago when I got back to the country and she had
been standing for 2 years since my previous journey in her! So it will not
hurt the engine at all..

What you do is mix cheap and nasty 20-50 oil from a super market, in a ratio
of 50-50 with diesel.

Drain your engine oil, give the engine a fresh filter, fill her up with this
recipe, start her up... while the engine warms up, follow a cycle of letting
it idle for 5 mins, then lifting the engine speed to 2000 rpm for 5 mins..
do not drive the car during this.. keep an eye on the oil pressure, and time
how long it takes for the radiator fan to come on.... after the radiator fan
has turned off, keep cycling the revs as mentioned for just as long as it
took from starting the engine until the fan came on and shut off (you can do
it longer than this if you want..

Once you have done this, drain the oil mix (leave it draining for an hour or
so), change the oil filter and give fresh good quality oil, something like
15w50 mobil, and take her for a carefull drive... in 9 out of 10 times, this
will cure the problem unless you have a completely knackered lifter.

Its a bit like a mega engine flush on steroids to keep in the arsonal as a
"if all else fails" idea.

It scares the hell out of most people... but you need to remember, diesel is
oil, just a very thin oil, so it thins down the 20-50 oil so it can creap
into clogged parts or defeat air locks within deflated lifters. Also diesel
contains deturgents, which help the process of moving sludge.. the only
reason we use 20-50 is that it is cheap, sufficient and gives about the
correct thickness when thinned with the diesel.

I wonder, do they even sell detergent motor oil anymore?
It used to say right on the bottle "detergent" or "non-detergent" but not anymore.

the current oils are detergent, its hard to find non detergent, but napa still sells it

synthetic oil in a 20 year old engine = leaks

the chemicals in synthetic oil will cause the oil seals to become brittle and break down. you will eventually get a leak.

a good quality engine oil, 15 w 40 Swepco for example is best. This oil exceeds ALL performance standards, whereas most other oils (Castrol, Shell, Mobil, etc) only just meet performance standards.

I've used Wynn's engine flush, and its good, seafoam would be good too. I wouldn't use deisel its tough on seals.

i wouldn't say that the chemicals cause the oil seals to break down.
it makes more sense to say that because the synthetic oil has a smaller particle, it's easier to slip through areas that a large particle oil wouldn't.

I ran synthetic in my car for 2 years, and never once developed a leak. many people run it too. I just recently switched to non-synthetic for one change just to see if it brought my oil pressure up a bit.

I would agree with that comment about synthetic oils...Synthetic oil is not hard on seals, in addition the seals on older cars....say 20 years, would have never been built to use synthetic oils, so the would be more likely to leak. If you put synthetic oil in a old 911 say early 70's, late 60's I would think it would leak.

I think synthetic causes leaks because it dissolves sludge that is coating old hardened and cracked seals or gaskets. Once sludge is gone seal is more prone to leak. if engine is fairly clean synthetic is less likely to cause leaks.

Caution: Seafoam is know to dissolve spit, elmers glue and duct tape, and loss of oil pressure is possible. It will not harm metal items such as bailing wire, however.

safest way is more frequent changes w/ quality oil

ive see leaks and even loss of pressure in therwise good running motors attempting to be flushed


I gree w/ dj on the synthetic deal, safe to use on new to clean stuff but w the older stuff leaky seals are possible

I think I started a monster...I was just checking, because the ATF works really well for Volvos, but that is a different beast all together.

interesting read

http://au.geocities.com/ozbrick850/atf-fundaments.html

One point I got is if there are contaminants in the oil, they cause damage to things such as surfaces between seals and crank. So flushing a very dirty engine and loosening a bunch of crap that ciurculates through the engine maybe enough to damage an old hardened or cracked seal and cause it to leak. I think the disolving sludge theory in my previous post is equally culpable.

[QUOTE=Cking1975;3883621]I have done an engine flush on my high mileage Saabs and Volvos. QUOTE]

So, I take it you've fixed the infamous crankcase ventilation/sludge issue on your 9-5?

That was the point of the discussion....stated in the Clark manual, if you have excessive lifter noise on a 944, there could be a block in the oil pickup, not allowing the correct oil pressure to the top of the motor...Personally, if I had this problem, I would use a detergent to clean the motor.

I was talking about your Saab, I just sold my 9-5 back to GM. There are lots of discussions on Saab Central forum about sludge. All engines develope sludge, Saab got a bad rap because they did a recall of the vent tube to reduce sludge.

I've had very good succes on a couple of Mazdas that I've owned adding 1 qt kerosene in the oil and idling for 1/2 hr before draining and completing the oil change. Diesel fuel is probably just as good. Hydraulic lifters on older Mazdas often clack, and this treatment has fixed that as well as cleaned out sludge. The car with sludge had the thermostat stuck open and ran cold for a long time. I attribute the sludge problem to that.

Please tell me this isn't true.

Seafoam is a solvent. It has no lubricating qualities at all. The benefits of removing any sludge are more than offset by the damage you certainly did to your engine.

FWIW I drain one quart of oil prior to a change, add one quart of ATF, run until warm, then drain. The detergents in the ATF are superior to those in motor oil (especially old motor oil) and it definitely results in a lot of the internal crud getting loosened up and drained out. Because the viscosity of the ATF is thinner than most oils, I don't recommend using more than one quart in this manner. The important thing is that ATF IS oil - it has lubricating qualities and is not a solvent like seafoam or that gunk crap in the silver can or any of the other "pre oil change" garbage that's sold at Pep Boys.

Seafoam is fantastic for removing carbon deposits although there's some debate as to whether even this (sucking it in through a vacuum line and using it to clean combustion chambers) is dangerous. The carbon dust/deposits do have to go somewhere, and on their way "out the door" so to speak, they may just tear up cylinders/rings/pistons/valves a bit. Carbon is pretty hard stuff (diamonds are a matrix of carbon atoms). Use at your own peril.

Anyway the point is I do NOT recommend any sort of solvent in one's oil - especially for "hundreds of miles". Doing so is a sure way to quicken your way to an expensive rebuild of the engine. The ATF thing actually does appear to work, but again, I wouldn't drive around with ATF in my engine - use it for its detergent value to loosen up the crap, then drain. And just change your oil regularly ya' cheapskates! ;)

i did the idle to operating temp with one qt of atf then drain without any problems.

a lot of not normal oil change black stuff came out in the process..